What to write into the appeal to claim Universal Credit? - A specific problem:

MusicianHomeless

Galloglass said:

I believe they should have give me the Universal Credit (UC) already when I claimed UC for the first time in June 2019 retrospectively

Is your argument about it being retrospective?

And is the second part of the argument that you should have been told about the scheme or placed on it without asking?

Yes, it's all about retrospective. Since about the beginning of this year I have been receiving the Universal Credit because when I claimed the second claim, I already had the settled status. But I believe, they should give me the Universal Credit (UC) retrospective, since when I claimed the first claim because I already was entitled (according the documents I provided them).
(Your second sentence I do not understand. What second part of the argument you mean?)

MusicianHomeless

calcotti said:

It doesn't matter The JobCentre do not follow the Settled Status rules. If somebody has Settled Status they are required to accept that. If somebody does not have Settled Status the 'old rules' still apply. They will have tested your claim against the applicable rules for somebody without Settled Status.

If somebody does not have Settled Status the 'old rules' still apply??? Yes, at that time when I claimed the first claim, I did not have the settled status, yet. But at that time, the law about  the settlement scheme, was already active. And because they made carefully reviews about all my previous statuses, they should do this, as well, about my status according to the settlement scheme according the documents which I provided them.

MusicianHomeless

calcotti said:

MusicianHomeless said: According to the settlement scheme, everybody who is entitled to receive the settled status is entitled to receive Universal Credit, as well. 

That is not correct. People who have Settled Status are entitled to UC. People who meet the conditions for Settled Status but have not yet obtained it do not necessarily meet the conditions to be eligible for UC.

Yes, this is the point. But at that time, the law about  the settlement scheme, was already active. And because they made carefully reviews about all my previous statuses, they should do this, as well, about my status according to the settlement scheme according the documents which I provided them. They made the differences about using the previous laws. and the current law (the settlement scheme) which they did not use.

This is the point and the big question to discuss about.
Because their behaviour sounds like the cowardly hypocritically bureaucracy.

calcotti

MusicianHomeless said:

calcotti said:

It doesn't matter The JobCentre do not follow the Settled Status rules. If somebody has Settled Status they are required to accept that. If somebody does not have Settled Status the 'old rules' still apply. They will have tested your claim against the applicable rules for somebody without Settled Status.

If somebody does not have Settled Status the 'old rules' still apply??? Yes, at that time when I claimed the first claim, I did not have the settled status, yet. But at that time, the law about  the settlement scheme, was already active. And because they made carefully reviews about all my previous statuses, they should do this, as well, about my status according to the settlement scheme according the documents which I provided them.

MusicianHomeless said:

calcotti said:

MusicianHomeless said: According to the settlement scheme, everybody who is entitled to receive the settled status is entitled to receive Universal Credit, as well. 

That is not correct. People who have Settled Status are entitled to UC. People who meet the conditions for Settled Status but have not yet obtained it do not necessarily meet the conditions to be eligible for UC.

Yes, this is the point. But at that time, the law about  the settlement scheme, was already active. And because they made carefully reviews about all my previous statuses, they should do this, as well, about my status according to the settlement scheme according the documents which I provided them. They made the differences about using the previous laws. and the current law (the settlement scheme) which they did not use.

This is the point and the big question to discuss about.
Because their behaviour sounds like the cowardly hypocritically bureaucracy.

You are missing the point. As explained the rules for assessing entitlement for someone without Settled Status and someone with Settled Status are different. Someone without Settled Status is not assessed using the rules for obtaining Settled Status.

You have asked for advice but so far have disagreed with all the advice that has been offered. As suggested in my first reply this is a specialist area and if you are simply going to reject the advice you have asked for here go and see someone who can give you advice you will trust and accept.

Muttleythefrog

I think this might be one for legal test... the value of appeal I can't comment on. They seem to be applying pretty straightforward rules (as users have pointed out) but you are arguing that being eligible for Settled Status enables you to be considered (under the Settlement scheme) as having some suitable status for Universal Credit purposes and means you are entitled to claim it. (I doubt any argument that you should be informed by DWP you need to gain settled status to claim would be effective). If that is the argument then it needs to be legally made... there may be the specialist lawyers willing to take it on... I would have a look and see if anyone else in the public domain is raising the same issue. There's always of course other potential avenue like human rights angles which the government seems to often fall foul of. In honesty though there may be limited impetus for forwarding an issue like this because I agree with another member or two that the EU nationals Settlement scheme is incredibly generous... especially when placed into parallel consideration for non EU nationals who would spend more than £2k getting an equivalent status and likely after many thousands in fees over the years previous to remain in order to qualify to apply for it. Unsurprisingly many of the immigration boards out there for advice are heavy biased towards advice and expertise regarding non EU nationals for obvious reasons. Unfortunately you likely haven't frequented such boards historically due to irrelevance but they do come with a theme of protecting your rights whenever and as soon as you can. 'What's the earliest date I can apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (the closest legal equivalent to EU nationals 
scheme Settled status for non EU nationals)?'  must be one of the most common questions out there.

OhWow

MusicianHomeless said:

Galloglass said:

I believe they should have give me the Universal Credit (UC) already when I claimed UC for the first time in June 2019 retrospectively

Is your argument about it being retrospective?

And is the second part of the argument that you should have been told about the scheme or placed on it without asking?

But I believe, they should give me the Universal Credit (UC) retrospective, since when I claimed the first claim because I already was entitled (according the documents I provided them).

You didn't have Settled Status until you had been approved and you had your BRP in hand to show you can work in the UK (or in your case, claim benefits).

The DWP explained that to you in the letter and I repeated that back to you last night, to try to help you understand.

You couldn't have benefits the first time because you did not have Settled Status (UK laws), you were not an EEA citizen worker (EU rules) and although you were an EEA jobseeker (had not exceeded the 91 days allowed for jobseeking), this did not allow you to have Universal Credit (EU rules).

OhWow

Muttleythefrog said:

I think this might be one for legal test. They seem to be applying pretty straightforward rules (as users have pointed out) but you are arguing that being eligible for Settled Status enables you to be considered (under the Settlement scheme) as having some suitable status for Universal Credit purposes and means you are entitled to claim it. (I doubt any argument that you should be informed by DWP you need to gain settled status to claim would be effective). If that is the argument then it needs to be legally made... there may be the specialist lawyers willing to take it on... I would have a look and see if anyone else in the public domain is raising the same issue. There's always of course other potential avenue like human rights angles which the government seems to often fall foul of. In honesty though there may be limited impetus for forwarding an issue like this because I agree with another member or two that the EU Settlement scheme is incredibly generous... especially when placed into parallel consideration for non EU nationals who would spend more than £2k getting an equivalent status and likely after many thousands in fees over the years previous to remain. Unsurprisingly many of the immigration boards out there for advice are heavy biased towards advice and expertise regarding non EU nationals for obvious reasons. Unfortunately you likely haven't frequented such boards historically due to irrelevance but they do come with a theme of protecting your rights whenever and as soon as you can. 'What's the earliest date I can apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (the closest legal equivalent to EU scheme Settled status for non EU nationals)?'  must be one of the most common questions out there.

This is all under UK immigration laws (not EU regs) and there are plenty of legal tests to show that until a UK visa is approved, they do not have that status. The UK even brought in two new Immigration laws 2014 and 2016 to stop people abusing the laws. It's how people can be deported, although not  EEA citizens while the UK was in the EU.  Settled Status is ILR and ILR is UK immgration laws.

EU citizens have already taken the UK to court because they wanted UK benefits on pre-settled status and they lost.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2020/998.html

Those that were an EEA citizen "qualified person" for 5 continuous years got the EU PR and then one year later used that to apply for British citizenship. The same for any non-EEA citizen family members they brought with them, parents, grandparents and also siblings, nieces, nephews, cousins and their spouses and children.

And getting ILR for those not using the EU routes is not 2k as you have stated, it is nearer to 10k.

OhWow

MusicianHomeless said:

calcotti said:

It doesn't matter The JobCentre do not follow the Settled Status rules. If somebody has Settled Status they are required to accept that. If somebody does not have Settled Status the 'old rules' still apply. They will have tested your claim against the applicable rules for somebody without Settled Status.

If somebody does not have Settled Status the 'old rules' still apply???

Now you are getting it.

OhWow

Galloglass said:

Aside from the OP, there are going to be a lot of people caught up in the complexity of the rules - on one hand being initially generous and then the strict requirements applied under nationality laws.

Presume that after 30th June next year, there will be a lot of people caught out who haven't applied for settled status. 

It's very simple, those who hold Settled Status can work and have benefits, while those hold Pre-Settled Status can work (no UK benefits).

Nationality laws have always been different. The UK government says that British citizenship is a privilege and not a right. That privilege can be removed.

UK immigration laws stop at ILR and the EU's Free Movement Directive stops at PR.

 If the applicant does not meet the requriements for citizenship (one of which is being of Good Character) at the time of application, then they are not given the priviilege of citizenship.

Muttleythefrog

OhWow said:

Muttleythefrog said:

I think this might be one for legal test. They seem to be applying pretty straightforward rules (as users have pointed out) but you are arguing that being eligible for Settled Status enables you to be considered (under the Settlement scheme) as having some suitable status for Universal Credit purposes and means you are entitled to claim it. (I doubt any argument that you should be informed by DWP you need to gain settled status to claim would be effective). If that is the argument then it needs to be legally made... there may be the specialist lawyers willing to take it on... I would have a look and see if anyone else in the public domain is raising the same issue. There's always of course other potential avenue like human rights angles which the government seems to often fall foul of. In honesty though there may be limited impetus for forwarding an issue like this because I agree with another member or two that the EU Settlement scheme is incredibly generous... especially when placed into parallel consideration for non EU nationals who would spend more than £2k getting an equivalent status and likely after many thousands in fees over the years previous to remain. Unsurprisingly many of the immigration boards out there for advice are heavy biased towards advice and expertise regarding non EU nationals for obvious reasons. Unfortunately you likely haven't frequented such boards historically due to irrelevance but they do come with a theme of protecting your rights whenever and as soon as you can. 'What's the earliest date I can apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (the closest legal equivalent to EU scheme Settled status for non EU nationals)?'  must be one of the most common questions out there.

This is all under UK immigration laws (not EU regs) and there are plenty of legal tests to show that until a UK visa is approved, they do not have that status. The UK even brought in two new Immigration laws 2014 and 2016 to stop poeple trying to abuse UK laws. It's how people can be deported, although not  EEA citizens while the UK was in the EU.  Settled Status is ILR and ILR is UK immgration laws.

EU citizens have already taken the UK to court becasue they wanted UK benefits on pre-settled status and they lost.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2020/998.html

Those that were an EEA citizen "qualified person" for 5 continuous years got the EU PR and then one year later used that to apply for British citizenship. The same for any non-EEA citizen family members they brought with them, parents, grandparents and also siblings, nieces, nephews, cousins and their spouses and children.

And getting ILR for those not using the EU routes is not 2k as you have stated, it is nearer to 10k.

I was referring to EU nationals not EU regulations.. sorry for any confusion... I'll make an addition of the word "nationals" to avoid further.
AFAIK there are legal differences between ILR obtained by non EU nationals and Settled Status obtained by EU nationals... one of them being absence from country and retaining it - 2 years versus 5 years. In practice they achieve similar through different method... some bridge to forthcoming unification (EU and non-EU nationals under same rules) of the immigration system one presumes for newcomers. 

Hopefully the Op takes note of case law. There is always the theoretical possibility of different legal challenges however and the reason I raise ECHR is because that throws up all sorts of potential avenues for challenging the government even if applying their law correctly... the government recently lost in high court regarding degrading treatment of the like and the NRPF condition in  sample case. My general view is as above.. I don't think there'll be much traction for furthering this kind of issue because of the generosity of the scheme and its one hit nature. I've done the best I can in advising EU nationals to protect their rights here as soon as they could.

On your last point.. I stated "..especially when placed into parallel consideration for non EU nationals who would spend more than £2k getting an equivalent status and likely after many thousands in fees over the years previous to remain." So I'm not sure what your contention is. The standard cost for an ILR application in the UK is currently £2389.. but as I pointed out... and you point out... in order to reach the point of that application thousands will have been likely spent on fees to remain (as unfortunately I know to my literal cost as I prepare to save the £2389 +£800+ £69.99 for an ILR application in November after years of thousands in fees and thousands lost in benefits due to no longer living alone).