PCN - ParkingEye - 14 Minute Stop (Didn't leave car!)

hardleyouth

Hi, 

I rented a car on 04/07/2020 to go and visit family outside of London.  Yesterday I received an e-mail from the car rental company (GetAround - a P2P car sharing service) notifying that they had charged my credit card £95 as the owner had received (and paid) and PCN - £60 for that plus £35 service charge from GetAround!  I racked my brains for how the hell I had received a PCN as I only 'parked' the car in two places - where I collected the car and at my uncle's house! 

I contacted the owner and she sent me a photo of the PCN which unveiled the harsh reality.  En route I had to make a phone call to my family so I pulled off the road and into the car park that happened to be infront of me - Mercure London Watford Hotel - which wasn't even open at the time I think.  I pulled up into the first parking space to make the call and then left immediately after - the PCN notice records my visit as being 14 minutes long.  

This is the car park entrance in question: https://goo.gl/maps/kcRDrL5hwS1MjvWz8.  There are signs, but I have to admit I didn't even notice them and definitely didn't notice the ANPR cameras!  

Do I have any grounds to appeal this with ParkingEye, POPLA, or even Mercure hotels themselves?  It seems insane to be fined £60/£90 for a 14 minute phone call in a closed hotel car park?  I caused no detriment to the business and it just seems an insane to be charged for this, I don't really have the £95 to spare!

Thanks all, grateful for your inputs. 

hardleyouth

Also worth adding that I began writing an appeal through ParkingEye's own appeals process but honestly I wasn't sure what my best line of appeal is here and whether in doing so I should be cautious whether I admit fault etc?  I am also unsure how this all sits considering 1) it's a rental and 2) the registered keeper has already paid the fine. 

Even if I were successful in appeal I feel like getting the money back would be a pain in the backside, and I doubt I'd get the £35 service charge back from GetAround? 

MistyZ

As the PCN has now been paid by GetAround, I don't see how it could be appealed, or how Mercure could cancel it.

I think the only route available is to argue your case with GetAround.  Start by scrutinising the terms of the agreement you have with them.  It is unlikely that the hirer has agreed that GA will pay invoices, which is what PCNs are.  It also seems very unreasonable of them to pay up rather than to transfer liability to the hirer which would have made this a lot easier to fight.  

Redx

The BPA CoP details grace periods that are allowed in clause 13 so download it and read it

A typical figure is 5 minutes grace period , ten at most , so as you had no permission to park on that private car park then you were issued with a valid PCN

The newbies FAQ sticky thread near the top of the forum tells you what to do with these , especially read the bottom of the first post where hire car advice is given by coupon mad and by Edna basher

Plan A is a landowner cancellation , so contact that hotel and see what they can do

If parking eye complied with POFA then not naming the driver won't help , so did parking eye comply with the law named POFA ??

Did they supply the hire docs with the PCN ?

Is there PCN POFA compliant for wording and timescales etc ?

I doubt that any appeal other than a technicality issue will work here, indignation is no defence , so in future park on a public road , not private property , or it will cost you dear. Also check for signage in future both off the road as well as on the road , never park without doing so (not leaving the vehicle is irrelevant , the vehicle was parked on private property)

Not having the money is also irrelevant , even homeless destitute people can be fined for breaking the rules of the law

Ditzy_Mitzy

I assume that the PCN itself, by virtue of being paid, has now been extinguished and with it any chance of appeal to the landowner or Parking Eye.  With both out of the equation, your recourse is to the car hire company.  You would have signed a disclaimer in relation to any fines or parking charges incurred whilst the car was  in your custody as part of the hire contract, therefore your dispute is with this particular clause.  I really can't see it going anywhere.  

Umkomaas

If 'GetAround' are members of the BVRLA they should have followed their Code of Practice and allowed you the opportunity to appeal to PE. Read through it and see where GA have failed to comply.  I think there's an ADR provision within the Code. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/BPA%20BVRLA%20MoU.pdf?dl=0

If they're not a BVRLA member, or even if they are, you could open a dispute with your credit card provider on the basis you have had money extracted from your account with no recourse to prevent it, even though there was a legal channel open to to you appeal the charge, denied to you by GA's precipitate action.  Read about The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4). 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

For the future, and certainly in similar circumstances, never use a private car park, they are nothing but bear traps designed to part you from your money!  They are not there for anyone and everyone to use at their convenience - whether the hotel/retailer (or whatever) is closed or the car park was empty - do not use!  Find a quiet road and park there.  No phone call can be that essential to risk a penalty from a private parking firm. 

Redx

Bear in mind that this wasn't a fine , it's an invoice

A successful appeal could result in a refund , but I doubt it

Arguing with the hire company may work , because they failed to follow bvrla guidelines so it could go to arbitration using their dispute procedure

With the correct legal arguments this could all work out due to red tape irregularities , but not on what happened on the day , that story is a dead duck

Ditzy_Mitzy

Umkomaas said:

If 'GetAround' are members of the BVRLA they should have followed their Code of Practice and allowed you the opportunity to appeal to PE. Read through it and see where GA have failed to comply.  I think there's an ADR provision within the Code. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/BPA%20BVRLA%20MoU.pdf?dl=0

If they're not a BVRLA member, or even if they are, you could open a dispute with your credit card provider on the basis you have had money extracted from your account with no recourse to prevent it, even though there was a legal channel open to to you appeal the charge, denied to you by GA's precipitate action.  Read about The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4). 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

For the future, and certainly in similar circumstances, never use a private car park, they are nothing but bear traps designed to part you from your money!  They are not there for anyone and everyone to use at their convenience - whether the hotel/retailer (or whatever) is closed or the car park was empty - do not use!  Find a quiet road and park there.  No phone call can be that essential to risk a penalty from a private parking firm. 

The problem is that Getaround isn't a bona fide car hire company, it's an app.  It's a middle man which allows an individual to enter into a hire agreement with another private car owner.  Getaround appear to provide the insurance and, I assume, impose particular terms and conditions on the hire agreement.  There must be particular conditions related to parking tickets.  It's not regulated, of course, these things never are.  Seems like another case of these shiny new 'challenger' companies being less good and more expensive.... 

Redx

Then it's either a landowner cancellation or it's challenging the PCN as a hirer keeper if the correct paperwork has not been sent with the NTH to successfully appeal on a technicality , once to PE and once again to Popla

Then it's a case of obtaining a refund

I see many difficulties along the way , tears and recriminations , all because the driver failed to notice the signs , hasn't realised that cameras are everywhere , not just in shops or on motorways , plus thinks they can park where they like because phone calls give everyone an exemption from the rules !!

I agree with you that unless the OP wises up it's a lost cause , it can be won same as Beckham got off speeding on a technicality , but he hired Nick Mr Loophole Freeman , at great expense , whereas the OP has a lot to learn and no money

Ditzy_Mitzy

Redx said:

Then it's either a landowner cancellation or it's challenging the PCN as a hirer keeper if the correct paperwork has not been sent with the NTH to successfully appeal on a technicality , once to PE and once again to Popla

Then it's a case of obtaining a refund

I see many difficulties along the way , tears and recriminations , all because the driver failed to notice the signs , hasn't realised that cameras are everywhere , not just in shops or on motorways , plus thinks they can park where they like because phone calls give everyone an exemption from the rules !!

I Grew with you that unless the OP wises up it's a lost cause , it can be won same as Beckham got off speeding on a technicality , but he hired Nick Mr Loophole Freeman , at great expense

I really don't know how that's possible.  The ticket has been paid so, unless the landowner can force Parking Eye to perform a retrospective cancellation of the PCN the whole thing is dead in the water - sorry.  
Getaround is, like Uber and all these other modern fly-by-nights, avoiding regulation by operating a de facto car hire company but claiming that it isn't operating a car hire company.  Regulations are, therefore, avoided. 
The trouble is that the car's keeper isn't Getaround, it's Fred Bloggs who contracted through Getaround to lend his car to the OP.  The PCN pack would have been sent to Fred Bloggs who, presumably, either paid it and reclaimed the money from Getaround or forwarded it to Getaround, more likely, for processing.  
The issue is that Getaround, somewhere in its small print, is likely to have different clauses to those of a normal hire company when it comes to parking tickets.  Getaround has to, at some level, protect Fred Bloggs.  He's not going to be happy if Getaround attempt to enter into a dispute because any additional penalties, debt collection or CCJs will go against him.  Getaround can't take the risk of one of its customers, Fred Bloggs, receiving a CCJ because of Getaround's actions.  
It's a mess, or rather it's occurred as the result of a fundamental weakness with these almost but not quite as good as the real thing business models.  

hardleyouth

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

The trouble is that the car's keeper isn't Getaround, it's Fred Bloggs who contracted through Getaround to lend his car to the OP.  The PCN pack would have been sent to Fred Bloggs who, presumably, either paid it and reclaimed the money from Getaround or forwarded it to Getaround, more likely, for processing.  

Thanks for all your inputs.  Just to quickly clarify that you are mostly correct.  The PCN was received by the registered keeper who then immediately paid it herself and then puts a claim in to GetAround who then immediately debit my credit card for £95.

It turns out that the £95 is composed of: £60 PCN charge, £5 GetAround processing fee, and £30 compensation (!?) for the registered keeper/hirer!  She must have been jumping up and down, £30 for putting her card details in.  That's half the value of the rental itself.