Complaint to management company owned by residents (me)?

WokAlot

Hello I am a Newbie and I have read the Newbie thread.  Perhaps sadly a little later than desired as mistakes have been made and a poor appeal was made against a PCN issued in a parking space detailed in my lease.  I will detail the sequence of events but TLDR;

I think I should complain to the management company (freehold) to have my PCN cancelled.  The management company has appointed another company as secretary.  I called this secretary company and they say they have no responsibility and all parking matters need to go through PCM.  All residents are shareholders of the management company and the directors are some of my neighbours.  Should I knock on their door to discuss this?  Should I email the secretary with an official complaint?  As a shareholder can I contact PCM and cancel the ticket myself?

Ok so the sequence of events.
We (my girlfriend and I) have bought our maisonette and lived here for a few years.  It is detailed in our lease that  we have a right to park in our parking space.  We are joint owners of the property/lease.

2 (a) a right to park a motor vehicle on the parking space shown edged orange and numbered as indicated in the Schedule hereto on the plan annexed hereto and together with a right of way at all times and for all purposes with or without vehicles over and along the roadway edged mauve and access hatched green on the plan annexed hereto

A few weeks ago we get a letter from PCM stating they are managing the car park and we need to display the enclosed permit.  Knowing no better we put the permit in the car.  Then one day the permit slides down the dashboard and isn't completely visible.  Based on this PCM issue a PCN and attach it to the windscreen.  My GF then appeals this using the online form as follows:

I own my own property there, along with the appropriate parking space, this is recorded on the deed, i had the ticket in my window as requested though by law you cant charge my for parking in my own parking space. I placed the ticket in respect of your company and the peopke who employ you to keep the parking appropriate  please reassess my ticket. If you need proof i will gladly send you my deeds to the property.

PCM reject the appeal with what appears to be a generic letter stating that they do not dispute that we own a permit just that it was not displayed correctly at this time and for further appeal to contact the IAS.

So I get involved and call PCM and go for general enquiries - sales team.  I inform them that they have no right and my lease has primacy of contract.  I ask for the contractual trail and they tell me they can't divulge this due to GDPR.  They tell me I have to speak with my management company or if I want to talk to PCM legal department I have to go through the PCN team.

I ring the company acting as secretary for my management company and they tell me they have no responsibility and I need to talk to PCM.  I ask about a contractual trail and they tell me the management company instructed them to instruct PCM to operate in our car park and beyond this they have no involvement or responsiblity and cannot provide a contractual trail.

So I go back to PCM, this time PCN team and they tell me unless I want to appeal a PCN they can't help and I should be talking to sales.  I tell them there is no need to appeal a PCN as my lease has primacy and the PCN has no basis.  So they give me an email address to use so that it can be given to the correct person to deal with.

I sent the following email to PCM and copied in my management company secretary:

Dear Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd,
Further to my telephone conversations today with your staff in sales and PCN.
I am writing with regards to the management of my car parking space.  The car parking space in question is detailed in the lease for 123 some road.
I am the resident and owner of the lease for 123 some road.  It is detailed in this lease that I have the right to park in the car parking space in question.  There is no requirement to display a permit.
You do not have any legal right to manage this car parking space in any way.  This includes requiring a permit or issuing Parking Charge Notices.
My lease has primacy of contract over any parking contracts.  There is no such clause in my lease which allows variation without my consent.  I have not given consent for any such variation.
As such you are operating illegally.
Stop operating in my car parking space immediately.  I revoke any implied consent to do so.
Any Parking Charge Notices you have issued, or will issue, to vehicles parked in my car parking space are null and void and will not be responded to.  This includes PCN Number: ABC123456
Yours,
XXXXXXXXXX

They came back to me quickly and asked me to confirm my address.  Once I did they they sent the following.

Hi XXXXXXX,
This action has now been completed at 12:21pm, the operative has been informed.
Bay ‘ABC123’ pertaining to your address has been opted OUT of the PCM enforcement patrols permanently.
Kind regards
YYYYYYYYY
Permit Team Admin 

Success!  I thought they had acknowledged the contents of my email but I then asked them to confirm that there will be no further action or correspondence regarding any PCN that have been issued to date.  Their response was.

Hi XXXXX,

 Unfortunately my department is separate to the PCN team.

 I have been advised that your appeal had been rejected on the 6th, the outstanding balance is currently at £60.00.

 Please contact 0123456789 and speak to the PCN team on Monday at 10am for some advice on what you can do next should you wish to take this further with the inderpendant appeals service.  

Kind regards

YYYYY

Permit Team Admin 

I don't think I am going to take this further with the IAS so I tell them.

Please forward this correspondence on to the PCN team so they can cancel the PCN.
There is no reason for me to appeal an invoice which is based on an invalid contract.  My lease has primacy of contract and does not require a permit to park nor does it allow you to invoice me for a PCN.

Since doing this on Friday I have done more research, in particular on this forum and feel like the management company are wrong to tell me they have no responsibility and I should be able to complain through them to have the ticket cancelled.  Please see my question regarding this at the top of this post.

If not I understand the IAS isn't worth trying unless you have a very strong point.  Is my lease having primacy of contract a very strong point?

So then, ignore debt collection letters and wait for the LBC.  My question is then because the PCN (and car) belong to my girlfriend is it possible for me to make the appropriate responses, prepare her defence and represent her in court or will she have to do it?

Apologies for the long post.  This is a shortened series of events, I do have more detailed notes on the conversations I have had with each party if required.

Thank you to anyone who can help and to those who have given their time to put together the information available on this forum.

Redx

My advice is to read this comprehensive thread about rights and responsibilities of all parties first

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6166235/new-address-has-just-introduced-parking-management/p1

Umkomaas

You've done a very good job so far in understanding the issues about residential parking. I think I'd send PCM UK a FRO and seek to have them removed from the estate. You will need your fellow residents to swing behind you. I'd copy all the 💩 you've received so far into a 'Newsletter' informing residents that unless you can all get shot of PCM UK, it's only a matter of time until their permit slips, or their wheel is touching a white line, or they're not absolutely parked parallel to the kerb, or parked partially on the kerb, then they will be dealing with the same crap as you, resulting in a lengthy, time consuming process, potentially ending in a court case.  It can take up to 6 years to kill a PCN off. Post it through your neighbours' letterboxes. 

Get shot ASAP!

D_P_Dance

Have you reasd this

htttp://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.htmlantsot

 What does your lease/AST say about parking? Does it mention the need to display a permit? then it may take primacy over the self serving TnC of the scammer, and interfere with your lawful right to “quiet enjoyment” of your property, possible an offence under The Landlord and Tenants Acts.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies.

Rad what happened whem IKPC ticketed a barrister

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/324523-ukpc-liable-for-trespass-success/

NeilCr

Personally, I'd knock on the door of one of the directors and have the (polite) conversation in the first place. If you get somewhere that may be the quickest and easiest way to get the ticket cancelled.

Coupon-mad

Get PCM removed immediately, like in this thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5997200/pcm-company-introduced/p1

You are a leaseholder.  Get the other leaseholders on board and write a letter like that one.  You need to make it clear that the MA are interfering with your leasehold rights and causing a private nuisance to the leaseholders and MUST be removed, and should never have been introduced. 

Also, the MA failed to carry out the consensus needed to vary your lease in this way (see the linked thread about the L&T Act - quote it like they did).

NEVER EVER agree to a permit scheme at your own home.  These are the ex-clampers who your MA has inflicted on you:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html

WHY did they think they could do that?  They can't.

NeilCr

Coupon-mad said:

Get PCM removed immediately, like in this thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5997200/pcm-company-introduced/p1

You are a leaseholder.  Get the other leaseholders on board and write a letter like that one.  You need to make it clear that the MA are interfering with your leasehold rights and causing a private nuisance to the leaseholders and MUST be removed, and should never have been introduced. 

Also, the MA failed to carry out the consensus needed to vary your lease in this way (see the linked thread about the L&T Act - quote it like they did).

NEVER EVER agree to a permit scheme at your own home.  These are the ex-clampers who your MA has inflicted on you:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html

WHY did they think they could do that?  They can't.

To be honest I'd have thought it's the RMC you need to go at. They'll have instructed the MA and are more than likely to be the party to the contract. And, it's them who should have carried out any vote. 

D_P_Dance

Indeed, the MA would not have contracted the scammer without the approval of the RMA.  They should have included this in an AGM.  If they did not, write to the company secretary and ask why not.

NeilCr

To make a more general point

As a director (now chairman - preens!) of a RMC I am likely to react far more favourably if someone approaches me, informally, first. As opposed to a lot of legalese and a link to an Internet forum. Sure - go down that route if you get nowhere - but it's always worth the personal touch to see if it can be sorted out that way. 

In general, the majority of people on estates don't give a monkeys about things if they don't effect them, personally. They, also, don't want to get involved in the running of the estate. They'll moan like hell at you if the bins aren't cleared - but they won't pick up the phone to the council themselves. 

I know from my own experience that many unpaid RMC directors put in a lot of time and effort to help keep the estate running. We do employ a MA to do a lot of the leg work but there are still decisions to be made and day to day issues that arise. So, it can be a bit galling when someone arrives waving the big stick who you haven't heard from  or seen before. I've got someone at the moment who, I admit, has had an ongoing problem and who I have sympathy for . Once it is sorted he wants to meet with me to discuss the conduct and training of directors and various other  issues.

He has had a flat on this estate for thirteen years. He has never attended an AGM nor has he ever offered to get involved or help out....

Grrr

Sorry got into rant mode there. But my general point remains. Try the informal approach first..

Half_way

PCM hiding behind GDPR with regards to this is a nonsense.

 You could/should of course spin this around and ask PCM what due diligence they carried out to check that they had the authority to access registered keepers personal data for parking on your property, as it would appear that this basic key task has not been carried out.

 You should also tell them, that in accordance with GDPR you are instructing them to remove your data from their systems, as they have accessed it with out just cause, and they also need to rectify the data they hold as it is inaccurate ( you have primacy of contract) and as a gesture of goodwill you will not pursue this data breach on the condition that this parking charge notice is cancelled, and you are compensated for your costs ( at time =£19 per hour)

You should also get involved with the committee and/or contact the person who signed off on PCM operating, you need to infomr them that whoever signed off on an unregulated parking company operating in the area could be held personally liable for any GDPR breach.

You also need to state that you have only displayed a permit as a courtesy, and you are now withdrawing this courtesy as well as any perceived right to access the land ( parking space) and you will return the permit upon the receipt of a stamped addressed envelope

 

WokAlot

Thanks everyone for the replies.

NeilCr great to hear of some experience from a RMC director.  I think you are right the next action should be to speak to one of the directors from my RMC.  I just wasn't sure how happy they would be if I knocked on their door, but their addresses (from companies house) are the only contact details I have for them.  When I have been speaking to the MA I have been taking the approach of being polite and friendly to get them on board rather than fight against them.

I now need to take some time and think about how I should approach the conversation on their doorstep.  After all I am complaining but I don't want to make them angry and after all is said and done these people are still my neighbours.  Perhaps I will speak with the MA again and see if they will divulge which director is best to speak to.

D_P_Dance yes the parkingprankster/parkingcowboys sites are where I learnt about primacy of contract and where I researched before contacting anyone.  My lease makes no mention of a permit to park, I quoted the clause regarding parking in my OP.

We have also kept all letters sent from the RCM.  These are normally minutes of meetings and we can't find anything about parking.  The first we knew about it was when we got the letter with the permit.

Half_way I fully expect PCM to come back with another negative response to my latest correspondance and I will continue to fight them but I'm not sure the GDPR angle will be succesful, although perhaps still worth a try.  My girlfriend did do the initial appeal so afaik offered her details rather than they accessed it via DVLA.  Also under GDPR you can store/process someone's personal data on a legal basis.  So I expect them to say they have an ongoing legal dispute with us and will keep our data on those grounds.

Redx I've had a skim and will read in detail. Thank you.

Umkomaas & Coupon-mad I couldn't find what an FRO is (meaning) other than the rude version of F Right Off which is what I'm trying to tell PCM lol.  I think the approach of having PCM removed is a valid one but needs to be approached carefully.  Honestly I think if I use too many words or appear demanding most of my neighbours will throw away any newsletter i write them without reading it.  Also I think I would have to come up with a reasonable alternative solution for parking management, as there was a problem with people parking outside of bays and making it awkward to park.  Is there such a thing as a good PPC?