HELP - Suing my contractor - is it worth it?

greatcrested

I assume you (or he) mean 'Letter Before Action'?

It's often used as a threat to scare people into paying, though it is indeed a required step befofe applying to court. Whether he really will apply to court only time will tell.But as I said, if he does, you smply enter a defence AND a counter-claim.

Your two written statements:

a) do they identify identical faults/issues?

b) what professional bodies do the floorers belong to?

It shouldn't be necesary for them to appear as witnesses, though if they do they can claim their expenses.

His threats (eg increased claim etc) are not relevant.

c) Focus you defense on the detail of exactly what he claims in the court papers he serves (assuming he takes tht next step). Ignore all the preceeding waffle.

d) focus your own claim (or counter-claim) on

* brief review of history. Bullet points make easy reading for the judge!

* substantiate the money you want paid (ie the detail of what needs rectifying as per the expert witness statements, plus

* the cost to finish the job

I suspect 5 pages is too long and (perhaps?) rambling, plus includes irrelevances.Focus on relevant facts.

GDB2222

I have no doubt that you should try to settle this.

You haven't said how much you have paid so far. Just £1400? If you employ a solicitor, it will cost you much more. If you do the claim yourself, you will be on an enormous learning curve. Besides that, I find it a bit hard to believe that the work done to date plus materials used aren't worth £1400.
Plus, despite payments to personal account, you probably had a contract with the limited company, which may go bust on you. 
Plus, he has some sort of claim against you. 

You need to start off by getting a quote from another firm to finish the job. Preferably 3 quotes. Once you have those figures, you'll be in a far better position to decide what to do. Besides, you presumably need a floor?

Awakeatlast

I work in construction. Have done for 40 years. I look after the pennies for the company I work for. I also deal with disputes with subcontractors. During my time I have been to court on three occasions. I've never lost a case. But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's stressful. Its also a risk to. You need to know two things from the outset.
1 ) Will you win?
2 ) Has the other party got enough money or assets to pay you if you do win? And if he has how long will it take to get that money.
You really need to think about this very clearly before you continue down the process. Yes it sucks when this sort of thing happens. But if you current actions are a "knee-jerk" response to the feelings you have towards this contractor you may well find yourself becoming embroiled in something that's just not worth it.
Without a doubt I am confident you have a robust case. But I'm not the judge.
I would also point out that evidence from other contractors about poor workmanship is effectively putting you into the judges hands. You can ask the judge to believe the other contractors are acting in good faith. However, s/he doesn't have to believe you. And if you're case is based upon reliance of this sort then (in my humble opinion) you are increasing the risk of failing to win. 
If I may be candid with you. From the timelines you have laid out and the various comments made by your contractor I'd say he was incapable from the outset of doing the works in the timelines stated. There's enough to suggest the quality of the work was also something he couldn't deliver. You have to convince a judge of that, not me. 
I am genuinely sorry to hear that it hasn't worked out. 
AaL

Jeepers_Creepers

Assuming - like most on here - that the work is unacceptably shoddy, that the company has taken far too long to do the work and that you have been fed obvious lies & excuses about the delays (eg - presence of woodworm), you were almost certainly entitled to show them the door due to a collapse in trust between you. Apart from the (hopefully) demonstrably poor quality of work, the debacle over his van and workforce also won't help his case in court if it gets that far. 

However, that does not mean that you don't still owe them for fair work already carried out. You say you've paid them a £1400 deposit out of a total job quoted at £6210? You also say he hasn't completed a single room - but how many rooms have the majority of floorboards in place? Ie - how much flooring material do you have in your house - is it enough to finish the job? Is it £1400 worth of reclaimed floorboards? More? Less?

I'm trying to work out what it is you were hoping to sue them for - what value, and why?

I would suggest that if the builder can show that you've received from him noticeably more than £1400 worth of work and materials - and I suspect you may have - you will not really have a case. At least not unless you can demonstrate that the work is so shoddy that it'll now cost you more than the original quote to put right. 

Does the builder have a valid claim against you? For terminating the contract due to the collapse in trust between you, I suspect he does not - it would surely be humiliating for him to even try this and have to describe what you've gone through! However, can it be considered that  - despite all the malarkey - he has given you significantly more than £1400 worth of work and materials? If so, he might well have a valid claim, tho' with him jumping from £2.5k to £6.5k (not a chance...) suggests a guy trying to intimidate you into a compromise and not someone who really believes he has a valid claim.

As said above, tho', I think the first necessary step is to get new quotes for completing the work, and this will take into account the materials you have on site. Be upfront with anyone coming round to quote - explain you've had to get rid of the original guy due to poor work and excessive delays (adding the story about his striking/thieving workforce), but that you still wish to make sure that he gets paid for fair work done. You are therefore looking at what it'll cost to complete the work, and you will likely then pay the original guy the remaining balance (if there is any...) of the original quote. (I think it's very important to demonstrate that you are a fair and reasonable person, because asking a tradesperson to come and quote for sorting out a previous sacked person will make many of them feel uneasy.) 

Obviously, if the new guys say it'll cost more than £4810 to finish, then you are left with the dilemma of whether to try a SC against the original guy. I'm kind of hoping, tho', that you have enough materials and floorboards on site to more than cover the £1400 you've paid out, so you will ideally end up with your nice floors for around the same original quote, in which case I'd personally be happy with that. 

Felics

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Assuming - like most on here - that the work is unacceptably shoddy, that the company has taken far too long to do the work and that you have been fed obvious lies & excuses about the delays (eg - presence of woodworm), you were almost certainly entitled to show them the door due to a collapse in trust between you. Apart from the (hopefully) demonstrably poor quality of work, the debacle over his van and workforce also won't help his case in court if it gets that far. 

However, that does not mean that you don't still owe them for fair work already carried out. You say you've paid them a £1400 deposit out of a total job quoted at £6210? You also say he hasn't completed a single room - but how many rooms have the majority of floorboards in place? Ie - how much flooring material do you have in your house - is it enough to finish the job? Is it £1400 worth of reclaimed floorboards? More? Less?

I'm trying to work out what it is you were hoping to sue them for - what value, and why?

I would suggest that if the builder can show that you've received from him noticeably more than £1400 worth of work and materials - and I suspect you may have - you will not really have a case. At least not unless you can demonstrate that the work is so shoddy that it'll now cost you more than the original quote to put right. 

Does the builder have a valid claim against you? For terminating the contract due to the collapse in trust between you, I suspect he does not - it would surely be humiliating for him to even try this and have to describe what you've gone through! However, can it be considered that  - despite all the malarkey - he has given you significantly more than £1400 worth of work and materials? If so, he might well have a valid claim, tho' with him jumping from £2.5k to £6.5k (not a chance...) suggests a guy trying to intimidate you into a compromise and not someone who really believes he has a valid claim.

As said above, tho', I think the first necessary step is to get new quotes for completing the work, and this will take into account the materials you have on site. Be upfront with anyone coming round to quote - explain you've had to get rid of the original guy due to poor work and excessive delays (adding the story about his striking/thieving workforce), but that you still wish to make sure that he gets paid for fair work done. You are therefore looking at what it'll cost to complete the work, and you will likely then pay the original guy the remaining balance (if there is any...) of the original quote. (I think it's very important to demonstrate that you are a fair and reasonable person, because asking a tradesperson to come and quote for sorting out a previous sacked person will make many of them feel uneasy.) 

Obviously, if the new guys say it'll cost more than £4810 to finish, then you are left with the dilemma of whether to try a SC against the original guy. I'm kind of hoping, tho', that you have enough materials and floorboards on site to more than cover the £1400 you've paid out, so you will ideally end up with your nice floors for around the same original quote, in which case I'd personally be happy with that. 

Thanks for this.
To clarify, I have had 4 other floorers come in to provide me quotes for works on the floor following the departure of the original contractor.
ALL have commented that the floors that original contractor has restored are extremely poor in terms of finish and laying. ALL have categorically stated that they would reccomend starting afresh as the work is so shoddy that it would be cheaper to do so.
Two of these individuals have given written quotes highlighting the work by 1) identifying the current issues with the flooring that are a result of the original contractors work and 2) the cost of remedying such problems.

It is a difficult question on how muhc he has spent. You have got to remember that the only materials that he has actually used is the cost of glues, screws, insualtion and labour. The floorboards are my own original floorboards. He had also rented a sanding machine and spent money on workers. If I was to comment on his material cost, I would say that this would probably be around £1000 if I am honest. HOWEVER, all the floorers I have asked to come and quote are dismayed at the damage he has left my floor in. He has oversanded them and left them in an very poor state. They reccomend (if I could afford it) that I replace the boards as, in many places they have been sanded nearly 5mm leaving them structurally unsound.

I have paid him £1400 for the work and also £1300 to purchase some additional reclaimed flooring. On the latter, he unfortunately purchased flooring of the wrong dimensions and age (meaning they are not in keeping with the rest of the house). He tried to persuade me that they would be fine but I didn't agree. The point of restoring original flooring would be to keep and repairs with replament boards to be along the same look (and quality). I am also looking to claim this amount back (and happy for him to take his boards back).

So in summary, the claim would be for the intiail deposit (£1400), the money I paid him for replacment boards (£1300) (where he pruchased the worng stlye boards), and the cost of now having to refit more reclaimed boards based on the damage he has done to the existing boards (which have now been rendered useless) (avereage of 3 quotes are c£5000).

I totally accept that he has spent money on labour and materials but my sticking point is that it would been better for me if he spent his 3.5 weeks here twiddling his thumbs. At least then, my boards would not have been touched.

At this moment in time, I have got another company in that is progressing with the floor so hopefully in a month or so I should be fine. I'm just so bitter at what he's got away with, the stress and damage hes caused and the fact that he has the audacity to sue me (or at elast indicate he would).

Felics

Also just to add, 
I did genuinely propose to him on his last day that he should stop and pay me back for the wrong floorboards he had purchased and he could take these and keep the deposit - he declined.

However after bringing in new trademen to quote for the job, all have stated that they'd seriously reccomend finding new boards as the ones he had left behind were so poor that it would be a shame to spend so much money on them just have a substandard product (that may need replacing again in 5-10 years).

GDB2222

Felics said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Assuming - like most on here - that the work is unacceptably shoddy, that the company has taken far too long to do the work and that you have been fed obvious lies & excuses about the delays (eg - presence of woodworm), you were almost certainly entitled to show them the door due to a collapse in trust between you. Apart from the (hopefully) demonstrably poor quality of work, the debacle over his van and workforce also won't help his case in court if it gets that far. 

However, that does not mean that you don't still owe them for fair work already carried out. You say you've paid them a £1400 deposit out of a total job quoted at £6210? You also say he hasn't completed a single room - but how many rooms have the majority of floorboards in place? Ie - how much flooring material do you have in your house - is it enough to finish the job? Is it £1400 worth of reclaimed floorboards? More? Less?

I'm trying to work out what it is you were hoping to sue them for - what value, and why?

I would suggest that if the builder can show that you've received from him noticeably more than £1400 worth of work and materials - and I suspect you may have - you will not really have a case. At least not unless you can demonstrate that the work is so shoddy that it'll now cost you more than the original quote to put right. 

Does the builder have a valid claim against you? For terminating the contract due to the collapse in trust between you, I suspect he does not - it would surely be humiliating for him to even try this and have to describe what you've gone through! However, can it be considered that  - despite all the malarkey - he has given you significantly more than £1400 worth of work and materials? If so, he might well have a valid claim, tho' with him jumping from £2.5k to £6.5k (not a chance...) suggests a guy trying to intimidate you into a compromise and not someone who really believes he has a valid claim.

As said above, tho', I think the first necessary step is to get new quotes for completing the work, and this will take into account the materials you have on site. Be upfront with anyone coming round to quote - explain you've had to get rid of the original guy due to poor work and excessive delays (adding the story about his striking/thieving workforce), but that you still wish to make sure that he gets paid for fair work done. You are therefore looking at what it'll cost to complete the work, and you will likely then pay the original guy the remaining balance (if there is any...) of the original quote. (I think it's very important to demonstrate that you are a fair and reasonable person, because asking a tradesperson to come and quote for sorting out a previous sacked person will make many of them feel uneasy.) 

Obviously, if the new guys say it'll cost more than £4810 to finish, then you are left with the dilemma of whether to try a SC against the original guy. I'm kind of hoping, tho', that you have enough materials and floorboards on site to more than cover the £1400 you've paid out, so you will ideally end up with your nice floors for around the same original quote, in which case I'd personally be happy with that. 

Thanks for this.
To clarify, I have had 4 other floorers come in to provide me quotes for works on the floor following the departure of the original contractor.
ALL have commented that the floors that original contractor has restored are extremely poor in terms of finish and laying. ALL have categorically stated that they would reccomend starting afresh as the work is so shoddy that it would be cheaper to do so.
Two of these individuals have given written quotes highlighting the work by 1) identifying the current issues with the flooring that are a result of the original contractors work and 2) the cost of remedying such problems.

It is a difficult question on how muhc he has spent. You have got to remember that the only materials that he has actually used is the cost of glues, screws, insualtion and labour. The floorboards are my own original floorboards. He had also rented a sanding machine and spent money on workers. If I was to comment on his material cost, I would say that this would probably be around £1000 if I am honest. HOWEVER, all the floorers I have asked to come and quote are dismayed at the damage he has left my floor in. He has oversanded them and left them in an very poor state. They reccomend (if I could afford it) that I replace the boards as, in many places they have been sanded nearly 5mm leaving them structurally unsound.

I have paid him £1400 for the work and also £1300 to purchase some additional reclaimed flooring. On the latter, he unfortunately purchased flooring of the wrong dimensions and age (meaning they are not in keeping with the rest of the house). He tried to persuade me that they would be fine but I didn't agree. The point of restoring original flooring would be to keep and repairs with replament boards to be along the same look (and quality). I am also looking to claim this amount back (and happy for him to take his boards back).

So in summary, the claim would be for the intiail deposit (£1400), the money I paid him for replacment boards (£1300) (where he pruchased the worng stlye boards), and the cost of now having to refit more reclaimed boards based on the damage he has done to the existing boards (which have now been rendered useless) (avereage of 3 quotes are c£5000).

I totally accept that he has spent money on labour and materials but my sticking point is that it would been better for me if he spent his 3.5 weeks here twiddling his thumbs. At least then, my boards would not have been touched.

At this moment in time, I have got another company in that is progressing with the floor so hopefully in a month or so I should be fine. I'm just so bitter at what he's got away with, the stress and damage hes caused and the fact that he has the audacity to sue me (or at elast indicate he would).

It seems to me, now that you have explained it, that you do have a good case. However, proving it may be harder. You would have been netter to get an independent expert in before starting more work. The only evidence you have is the various quotes from contractors, who all could be said to have a vested interest in bidding up the work required.

Felics

GDB2222 said:

Felics said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Assuming - like most on here - that the work is unacceptably shoddy, that the company has taken far too long to do the work and that you have been fed obvious lies & excuses about the delays (eg - presence of woodworm), you were almost certainly entitled to show them the door due to a collapse in trust between you. Apart from the (hopefully) demonstrably poor quality of work, the debacle over his van and workforce also won't help his case in court if it gets that far. 

However, that does not mean that you don't still owe them for fair work already carried out. You say you've paid them a £1400 deposit out of a total job quoted at £6210? You also say he hasn't completed a single room - but how many rooms have the majority of floorboards in place? Ie - how much flooring material do you have in your house - is it enough to finish the job? Is it £1400 worth of reclaimed floorboards? More? Less?

I'm trying to work out what it is you were hoping to sue them for - what value, and why?

I would suggest that if the builder can show that you've received from him noticeably more than £1400 worth of work and materials - and I suspect you may have - you will not really have a case. At least not unless you can demonstrate that the work is so shoddy that it'll now cost you more than the original quote to put right. 

Does the builder have a valid claim against you? For terminating the contract due to the collapse in trust between you, I suspect he does not - it would surely be humiliating for him to even try this and have to describe what you've gone through! However, can it be considered that  - despite all the malarkey - he has given you significantly more than £1400 worth of work and materials? If so, he might well have a valid claim, tho' with him jumping from £2.5k to £6.5k (not a chance...) suggests a guy trying to intimidate you into a compromise and not someone who really believes he has a valid claim.

As said above, tho', I think the first necessary step is to get new quotes for completing the work, and this will take into account the materials you have on site. Be upfront with anyone coming round to quote - explain you've had to get rid of the original guy due to poor work and excessive delays (adding the story about his striking/thieving workforce), but that you still wish to make sure that he gets paid for fair work done. You are therefore looking at what it'll cost to complete the work, and you will likely then pay the original guy the remaining balance (if there is any...) of the original quote. (I think it's very important to demonstrate that you are a fair and reasonable person, because asking a tradesperson to come and quote for sorting out a previous sacked person will make many of them feel uneasy.) 

Obviously, if the new guys say it'll cost more than £4810 to finish, then you are left with the dilemma of whether to try a SC against the original guy. I'm kind of hoping, tho', that you have enough materials and floorboards on site to more than cover the £1400 you've paid out, so you will ideally end up with your nice floors for around the same original quote, in which case I'd personally be happy with that. 

Thanks for this.
To clarify, I have had 4 other floorers come in to provide me quotes for works on the floor following the departure of the original contractor.
ALL have commented that the floors that original contractor has restored are extremely poor in terms of finish and laying. ALL have categorically stated that they would reccomend starting afresh as the work is so shoddy that it would be cheaper to do so.
Two of these individuals have given written quotes highlighting the work by 1) identifying the current issues with the flooring that are a result of the original contractors work and 2) the cost of remedying such problems.

It is a difficult question on how muhc he has spent. You have got to remember that the only materials that he has actually used is the cost of glues, screws, insualtion and labour. The floorboards are my own original floorboards. He had also rented a sanding machine and spent money on workers. If I was to comment on his material cost, I would say that this would probably be around £1000 if I am honest. HOWEVER, all the floorers I have asked to come and quote are dismayed at the damage he has left my floor in. He has oversanded them and left them in an very poor state. They reccomend (if I could afford it) that I replace the boards as, in many places they have been sanded nearly 5mm leaving them structurally unsound.

I have paid him £1400 for the work and also £1300 to purchase some additional reclaimed flooring. On the latter, he unfortunately purchased flooring of the wrong dimensions and age (meaning they are not in keeping with the rest of the house). He tried to persuade me that they would be fine but I didn't agree. The point of restoring original flooring would be to keep and repairs with replament boards to be along the same look (and quality). I am also looking to claim this amount back (and happy for him to take his boards back).

So in summary, the claim would be for the intiail deposit (£1400), the money I paid him for replacment boards (£1300) (where he pruchased the worng stlye boards), and the cost of now having to refit more reclaimed boards based on the damage he has done to the existing boards (which have now been rendered useless) (avereage of 3 quotes are c£5000).

I totally accept that he has spent money on labour and materials but my sticking point is that it would been better for me if he spent his 3.5 weeks here twiddling his thumbs. At least then, my boards would not have been touched.

At this moment in time, I have got another company in that is progressing with the floor so hopefully in a month or so I should be fine. I'm just so bitter at what he's got away with, the stress and damage hes caused and the fact that he has the audacity to sue me (or at elast indicate he would).

It seems to me, now that you have explained it, that you do have a good case. However, proving it may be harder. You would have been netter to get an independent expert in before starting more work. The only evidence you have is the various quotes from contractors, who all could be said to have a vested interest in bidding up the work required.

I also think this (i.e. it could be argued they just want the job so could be exaggerating).

However I hope the fact that I have 3 quotes stating the repair work as well as one pretty comprehesive report on the condition of the work undertaken and another high level report from a woodworm specialist (stating there was in fact no woodworm) will be enough?

Jeepers_Creepers

Blimey, that is much worse than I thought, Felics.

What were you going to get for your £6210? Lift floorboards, lay insulation, replace boards, sand and finish? If so, that's an almost entirely labour-based job with the only significant extra costs being the insulation, sanding sheets and finishing products. Seems pretty high. You have currently paid £1400 deposit and £1300 for additional boards?

I would say that this contractor hasn't a hope in 'ell of making a successful claim against you - he'd be brass-necked to even try, and will almost certainly be humiliated in court should he do so.

The question now is, how have you been left, and what will it cost to have the job done properly? You have been quoted around £5k to sort it?

If the replacement boards CD bought were unsuitable - and it would appear that they are - then a successful claim for that £1300 should be on the cards. As part of this, you would write to him (recorded method - eg email, text, or recorded delivery mail) to explain that he needs to take them back, explaining why, and refund their cost in full - and do so within (I dunno) 1-2 weeks?; he needs a date. I can't see him doing this, of course, as it would be an admission of his mistake... I guess they are already fitted? In which case you add that, if he doesn't remove them and take them away, you will leave them outside and available for him to collect once they have been removed by your new contractor - you will be suing him for the full cost regardless. The idea is that you are rejecting these boards as unsuitable, and therefore expect him to take them back and refund you - they will 'belong' to him. You shouldn't dispose of them or allow the new guys to take them away until you have given CD a reasonable opportunity to collect them. Suing him for that £1300 should, I'd have thought, be straightforward and almost certainly successful, but the judge will need to demonstrably see that the boards were just not the correct ones and would spoil the overall appearance of your floor. (Do you have names for the types of wood in your original floor and in these replacement boards? Can you keep a sample of each?!)

I would imagine you'd also have a good case to make for getting most of your £1400 back, especially if you can show that they have caused additional damage - sanded existing boards too thin, for example - and theoretically even more if you can clearly show they have left you in a worse-off situation than when they started. Against this, however, is the cost of materials you have gained such as insulation.

I would sit down and do my 'sums' then, and work out just what you will need to win in order to end up with a finished floor at close to the original quote. The replacement boards he supplied - these have to go, and you should get your £1300 back. How much, then, of the £1400 to aim for would, I think, come down to what it'll take to end up with what you wanted from the off. I think I'd be inclined to set it at a level that would achieve this, so claiming £1200 of that £1400 would demonstrate good faith from you, and highlight your reasonableness against his chaotic approach. You acknowledge that he has provided you with some useful materials - the insulation, for example - and that all you want is to be where you should have been in the first place.

Once this is over, you liberally spray the interweb with damning reviews of this chancer...

Oh, do you have Legal Protection on your household insurance? If 'yes', give yourself a pat on the back - this is the sort of thing it's designed for. Give them a call. 

robatwork

Felics said:

So in summary, the claim would be for the intiail deposit (£1400), the money I paid him for replacment boards (£1300) (where he pruchased the worng stlye boards),

I think this may be a bit sticky.

He will probably reasonably argue he's done £1400 of labour, or at least a large proportion of that, even if it wasn't to your standards. 

Also the boards are an issue - he has purchased them and presumably has receipts. You'd have to demonstrate a breach of contract in that he has bought something that isn't close to your specification. Is that all in writing?

I fear that the cost and the stress of a court case may be not recovered even if a ruling is granted for a couple of hundred pounds if he defends himself.