Complaint upheld

Rad-Niknam

A historical endowment policy with Royal Life, now Phoenix, based in Liverpool, was mis-sold in 1989 and all its details including the policy number have been misplaced possibly lost. A complaint was filed with the FSO which was upheld. Royal Life said they could not find the policy number, and if we could find our bank statement showing money was being paid into an account, then they will be able to locate the policy #, so that fso could determine the size of the compensation. At great length and all thanks to a good lady at our old bank RBS admin, all the relevant bank statements were located and sent to Phoenix, which much to our amazement, once again stated that they still cannot locate the policy number and refused to make any payment for the mis -sold policy. We have a strong feeling that Phoenix has the number and are quite unethically refusing to cooperate. Can anyone suggest any sure way of finding a way of establishing our lost endowment policy #? Many thanks! 

Thrugelmir

Do you have the original policy document? 

Rad-Niknam

Hi, Thank you for your speedy response and query. The answer is I'm afraid not, if we did the problem would have been solved. The building society would have cashed the policy when the house was repossessed, and whilst they helped with our interest only mortgage a/c #, however, they could not help with the policy #. The solicitor who helped with the purchase had gone out of business, though I feel, SRA may be able to help with their whereabouts, even then what if all their files were disposed of. What about the credit agencies, I believe I may have approached them in the past and the response was negative. One lady who had been helped, the forum had suggested the bank account which we too thought, and royal life said would be very helpful, and a decider and subsequently refused to help, not quite sure, why the bank statement didn't show any record. Any help shall be most appreciated. 

Thrugelmir

When was the house repossessed? 

Rad-Niknam

Mortgage, Nationwide, £29000, 25yrs
Endowment in joint name, £29,000, 25 yrs, we were told it would appreciate by min 100% to pay for the mortgage & more for our children's future investment
Purchased October 1989
Repossessed May 1995
Nationwide demanded money in 1999 - 2001 to the tune of > £25K,  Citizen Advice helped to make settlement of around £5K from memory though it could have been a lot less.
2016 with all the hype about PPI mis-selling, we were told and approached a broker and realised endowment policy is also covered and raised the issue with FSO,
2018 - 2019, the complaint was upheld. 

dunstonh

Phoenix did not exist until around 2003.   In some cases they bought the complete life & pensions book of insurance companies but in other cases, they only took on the cases there were only in force at that time.   The details of historic cases may not have been given to them.

When Phoenix started to consolidate policies onto combined systems, they only moved the active policies over.   
So, Phoenix may well not have any details or have them in an archived system that is under policy numbers.

There is one more potential issue as well.   If the policy details are located and the a payout is then possible, if the policy was assigned to the lender, then the redress is often paid to the assignee.  And in cases of defaults, arrears or amounts written off as part of an agreed settlement, the lender is allowed to keep the amount of redress that covers the debt.   Only if there is a surplus would you get it.    The lender may not have the records after all this time to do that but if they have, then they are allowed to do that (as a good number of people who did PPI complaints with defaults, arrears, write offs found out).

Rad-Niknam

In 1999 - 2002 the matter of imbalace through mediation with CAB was settled and the adverse entry on my credit file was removed and a copy has been retained accordingly. So by the looks of things as you have suggested it is the policy # which would be required in order to pursue this further. 

Old_Lifer

If  I understand you correctly.  the house was repossessed in 1995 and the endowment was then surrendered and the proceeds applied towards the mortgage  shortfall.     Sometime between  1999-2001  you were pursued  for the remaining mortgage shortfall.

If the endowment was surrendered in 1995 the policy  at that point would have  ceased to exist.    During my service we kept old policy records for seven years   and then destroyed them     but in practice we often kept records for much longer , as destroying old records had a low priority.      Nonetheless,  after 25 years it is likely that the records no longer exist,  especially bearing in mind   dunstonh's  comments regarding the change of provider.

Normally,  the policy document would have been handed-in before the surrender value was paid   but the policy number  would appear on other documentation issued at the time you took-out the policy and would also appear on each annual bonus notice,   so you should not necessarily need to rely on the Life Office to tell you this      Each payment entry on the  bank statement would have a reference so that it could be indentified and this would usually be the policy number.      Of course, all of this will be of no help if the policy records have been destroyed and no longer exist ;  in which case  I cannot  see how you will make  further progress with this matter.

Incidentally,   an endowment mortgage taken out in 1989  really would have been expected to repay  a mortgage in full and with a sizeable sum left over.    It was not until  several years later that  cuts in bonus rates  led to the  the issue of shortfalls.

Rad-Niknam

Thank you old_lifer, looking at the bank statements from 1989 - 1995, when the house was Repossessed when we were on an employment assignment abroad, and the house was being manged by a letting agent (no help could be sought from them) , with the lender's permission, I cannot see any numbers next to the D/D, as you would normally expect, associated with the policy number. Can you let me know if the policy number could by chance be found, will there be any redress, will policy document be pivitol or as the phoenix maintains, the policy number should do it?
What about the fscs could redress be sought from them, as the estate agent was called Royal Life Estate, which was tied to the Royal Life, brokering the policy and the mortgage, only tied to the insurance company Royal life, the ombudsman has found Royal life estate, (God bless her she has even searched the estate agent' company, which went bust) as being tied to Royal Life, the policy provider, and responsible for mis-selling both products, policy & the mortgage. With it being a bankruptcy, will fscs be a contender to look into this, or is it just when the lender goes out of business. I have by the way referred to fscs before the ombudsman decision, and due to lack of time have not yet gone back, and the verdict was wait for the ombudsman's decision and then come back. Any help shall be most appreciated. Kind regards! 

Thrugelmir

Rad-Niknam said:

We have a strong feeling that Phoenix has the number and are quite unethically refusing to cooperate.

Phoenix will hold no records for a lapsed policy dating back to 1995. Only active policies at the time of take over would have been transferred. 

Old_Lifer

If you can find the policy number,   the  format and sequence of numbers (and perhaps letters) may indicate  it was a Royal Life  policy and in some circumstances may also indicate the policy type.    Even if they no longer have records , someone may recognise   that this was within a number sequence  used by  Royal Life at the time.     However,  while they  should still have records of Royal Life policies still in force or recently cancelled,   your policy was cancelled long ago, so the records of your policy may have  eventually been destroyed .     When  I say policy records ,  I am not  just referring to the policy document  which  may have been returned on surrender     but to a whole range of documentation that would have been created when the policy was set-up.   This would have included the proposal form you completed , any medical reports obtained , copies of all letters issued  and  of internal memos regarding the proposal and a copy of the acceptance letter.   Once  a policy had  commenced, office records would then be set-up and the policy entered in  'the system'.   Commission records would also be set-up.    If all these records have been destroyed long ago,   it is difficult to see  how you can progress further with this query.

I cannot comment  regarding  complaints and compensation ,  it is not within my area of knowledge.         dunstonh  is probably the best person  on the Forum to deal with that aspect  of your query.