Leasehold restrictions

PawelK

Hello. Firstly, apologies if this is not the best group for my lost but I couldn't find better one.
I was just told by one of my neighbours that apparently our management company will soon be requesting all residents to remove anything from the outside verandas we have which form part of the fire escape route. We live in a small area of several blocks of flats and three of them create enclosure of a communal grass. Each block is facing that lawn backwards and at that back there is a staircase from the second floor down which purpose of is a fire escape route. However at each floor consisting of two flats, one has a wider area away, around two meters away from the actual staircase. I am am wondering if anyone knows of the exact fire regulations in the UK. Many people use that extra space to have a small table with chairs to sit out and some grow some plants in pots. None of this obstructs the fire escape way. What's strange is that they also apparently said even a trampoline from the lawn must go, a parent bought for his two daughters to enjoy some time outdoors during lockdown. Apparently all of this is a fire hazard now. I lived here for 2.5years but the neighbour who tipped me about what's coming said he lived here nine years and there was never any problem with using chairs, tables or recreational items (for children) on the grass. The company is very poor and haven't dealt well with some other things that I think are a real hazard such as hanging lose electric cables and rubbish clearance. We can have a petition sent to them from the residents questioning their new requirement that will impact all of us negatively but it will be pointless of there is actually a law that says that the fire escape route must be clear NO MATTER HOW WIDE OR FAR FROM THE STAIRCASE.
I would massively appreciate response from someone who is or has been in a similar situation or perhaps representative of a management company or someone who know leasehold law in this area.

Thank you.

greatcrested

I believe the local fire brigade will do a risk assessment if you ask (and presumably when they are not fighting fires!).

blue_max_3

What if one person decided to have a barbecue there?
Often the hallways of converted apartments get full of bikes and stuff. They are supposed to be clear. When you have a fire inspection during sale, it will comment on it.
Presumably something has happened to make them take this response. They are fulfilling their obligations to inform. Whether people act on it is another thing entirely.

loubel

It isn't uncommon for leases to require communal areas to be kept clear. Does your lease give you a right to leave things there or are they just accessways?

davidmcn

Are you leaseholders or just tenants? If leaseholders, what do your leases say about all of these matters?

PawelK

blue_max_3 said:

What if one person decided to have a barbecue there?
Often the hallways of converted apartments get full of bikes and stuff. They are supposed to be clear. When you have a fire inspection during sale, it will comment on it.
Presumably something has happened to make them take this response. They are fulfilling their obligations to inform. Whether people act on it is another thing entirely.

blue_max_3 said:

What if one person decided to have a barbecue there?
Often the hallways of converted apartments get full of bikes and stuff. They are supposed to be clear. When you have a fire inspection during sale, it will comment on it.
Presumably something has happened to make them take this response. They are fulfilling their obligations to inform. Whether people act on it is another thing entirely.

Thank you for your input. Of course BBQ are not allowed and as far as I know people don't keep anything obstructing the way directly. Any items kept in the area is away from the moan route. When I was buying the flat there was no fire risk assessment mentioning that and it was actually pointed out by the estate agent that this a private part used only by my flat (as the kitchen doors are facing directly out) and for my entertained. Bit you're right, something that could happen recent on one of the blocks could have sparked this reaction. Just to note, these are not concerted but purpose built flats in the 30's.

PawelK

davidmcn said:

Are you leaseholders or just tenants? If leaseholders, what do your leases say about all of these matters?

Good question. I am the flat owner and don't remember seeing anything about it in the lease but would need to check the full text.

princeofpounds

Hi Pawel. 

First off, let's be clear. It's highly likely that you, as leasehold owners of the flats, do not own these balconies/staircases (correct me if so). Nor for that matter do you own the communal gardens. If so, the freeholder is perfectly within their rights to demand these items are removed. They are also within their rights to remove the items, after giving fair warning (although they should not throw them away before offering a further opportunity to collect). This may be annoying if you are used to using them in a different way, but that's just how it is. 

Furthermore, there almost certainly will be provisions in the lease documents where leaseholders are required to keep common areas clear, and fire escape routes in particular. In fact the freeholder is probably in breach of their own obligations if they do not at least try to remove these items, and certainly they risk problems with liability if they are negligent in the matter. You may find that letters demanding removal are as far as it goes.

Yes, sometimes these issues get taken too far by freeholders. No-one is realistically going to claim negligence if they don't act to clear a small plant pot two metres away from the stairs, for example. But it's often easiest and most straightforward to take a blanket approach to these things, so everyone knows where they stand.

There is no specific law banning tables and chairs within X inches of a fire escape staircase. It's not required and that's just not how English law operates. 

PawelK

princeofpounds said:

Hi Pawel. 

First off, let's be clear. It's highly likely that you, as leasehold owners of the flats, do not own these balconies/staircases (correct me if so). Nor for that matter do you own the communal gardens. If so, the freeholder is perfectly within their rights to demand these items are removed. They are also within their rights to remove the items, after giving fair warning (although they should not throw them away before offering a further opportunity to collect). This may be annoying if you are used to using them in a different way, but that's just how it is. 

Furthermore, there almost certainly will be provisions in the lease documents where leaseholders are required to keep common areas clear, and fire escape routes in particular. In fact the freeholder is probably in breach of their own obligations if they do not at least try to remove these items, and certainly they risk problems with liability if they are negligent in the matter. You may find that letters demanding removal are as far as it goes.

Yes, sometimes these issues get taken too far by freeholders. No-one is realistically going to claim negligence if they don't act to clear a small plant pot two metres away from the stairs, for example. But it's often easiest and most straightforward to take a blanket approach to these things, so everyone knows where they stand.

There is no specific law banning tables and chairs within X inches of a fire escape staircase. It's not required and that's just not how English law operates. 

Thanks very much for your reply. I fully acknowledge the parts outside are most likely not mine and I really only own the flat within its walls. I also accept that the freeholder is in right to keep the area clear of obstacles. I was just wondering whether this could be at the discretion of them or is there actually any UK law that gives details on the width of the fire evacuation route etc. But your last paragraph was actually helpful. What I have done is I just booked a free home visit by LFB to asked my smoke alarms etc. and I will use this opportunity to have their opinion on the outside space. If a professional tells me it's not safe I will happily remove everything that shouldn't be there. Even small pots as I developed green fingers during the lockdown and growing now few veg and flowers in the corner away from the staircase. However, I want to have that opinion as our management company is terrible when it comes to dealing with many things we raised with them (surprise!) And I want to ensure they don't go that extra mile just to show us they do anything while there are more important things to do around the blocks and some related to the safety.
The problem may have stemmed from the fact that some people (especially on the ground floor, I am first floor) keep way too many things at the bottom of the staircases such as bicycles, barbeques one even mounted a swing for their daughters which I am pretty sure would obstruct the escape partly. If they put the blanket on everyone that would be probably the Reason why. Let's see and thanks again for your input. Much appreciated.

princeofpounds

Thanks - yes I think were being too specific in terms of thinking about the law. It's not that prescriptive, the legal situation develops organically from the laws on property ownership, leasehold/freehold law, insurance and health & safety law, and civil liability. 

There will be more specific building regulations around fire escapes on new construction, but that doesn't actually apply to already-existing buildings. 

Just wait and see if you get the demand, and whether it it enforced in practice. In most flats with communal space it's a bit of a cat-and-mouse game, with the freeholders clearing the communal spaces and the leaseholders slowly creeping stuff back in over following months. 

NameUnavailable

It's no so much law but what your lease actually says. It almost certainly has something along the lines of use of common areas for access only and use of the communal gardens (but not to set up trampolines or sheds or private areas).

I am wondering why the sudden change however - have you had a change of management company recently? I had a flat where we each had some personal items outside our front doors (also not in any way blocking access) and a new management company was appointed who then gave notice that items would be removed within X days. Oddly however, they refused to do anything about the flat who were taking over the communal garden with their own furniture, clothes line etc., and who happened to be related to the freeholder..........