Fence Ownership/Responsibility

fleetingmind

We've been in our property for a number of years and on purchase the seller pack said our responsibility was the back and right side w(is a lot of fence and backs onto numerous other houses). The left side as you look at house was our neighbours responsibility according to seller pack. Which is common where we live. The previous owner of our house also told us tonight that the neighbours previous owner put in a retaining wall and fence years and years ago. 

The neighbours are not nice and we put up with a lot e.g dog wee/poo smell, dog howling, mess etc. The fence has always been bad and some parts made up of old kitchen cupboard doors. Their dog has since started coming into garden through a gap in the fence. We've taken the dog back round numerous times. Got to be amicable! We've asked them to sort the fence which they got quotes for but was too much apparently. They then replaced 1 or 2 panels but it still looks horrific and has gaps and thedthe still can get into our garden.  The dog came in again tonight and pooed in our garden. So my wife took it back agsin and told themwthem it had done and asked them to fix the fence. We've got a young child who is in the garden a lot in this nice weather and there is the risk  of poo/biting. 
He replied they've done some research and it's our responsibility apparently and it's for us to fix. We're raging as pretty convinced he's trying to pull a fast one. 

The way he spoke to my wife, the good will has now ended. But I want to get my facts right before confronting him and asking what proof they may have. Ignoring their legal responsibility to keep their dog out of our garden for now, how do I check whose responsibility the fence is? I've got some paperwork but not sure what I'm looking for and if it's a diagram or wording.  
Can I obtain documents to show who has responsibility or if nothing is stated does the neighbours previous owner building a wall and fence on top of that set a precedent?

Thank you for any advice. 

hazyjo

What do your deeds say? Should be able to download these from the Land Registry for a small fee.

Are you talking about looking at front of house when you say left, or at the back of your house? (It should be front.)

There is no legal obligation to have a fence. (Think there's something about dogs being contained within their owner's garden, but not sure on the law.)

You really should find a solution rather than start a neighbour dispute. You don't want to make your properties hard to sell. Would you buy one with a neighbour dispute? I  probably wouldn't.

Either block the gaps yourself, or pay for and replace the fence yourself (if they'll let you), or erect your own fence next to theirs on your side. You'll lose a few inches off that side of your garden but are you really going to notice? These options will be much cheaper in the long run than a neighbour dispute.

Good luck.

fleetingmind

hazyjo said:

What do your deeds say? Should be able to download these from the Land Registry for a small fee.

Are you talking about looking at front of house when you say left, or at the back of your house? (It should be front.)

There is no legal obligation to have a fence. (Think there's something about dogs being contained within their owner's garden, but not sure on the law.)

You really should find a solution rather than start a neighbour dispute. You don't want to make your properties hard to sell. Would you buy one with a neighbour dispute? I  probably wouldn't.

Either block the gaps yourself, or pay for and replace the fence yourself (if they'll let you), or erect your own fence next to theirs on your side. You'll lose a few inches off that side of your garden but are you really going to notice? These options will be much cheaper in the long run than a neighbour dispute.

Good luck.

You're right and we definitely don't want to start anything official which will affect us selling in the future. Obviously we would if we really had to. 

From the road looking at house it's the left side. 
I know I need to see the deeds but not sure what to purchase from land registry. 

Thank you. 

ElephantBoy57

There is a duty on dog owners to keep their dogs under control. The fence is a different issue. What is yours and your neighbours status, social tenents, private tenants or homeowners. You can get a fence yourself or split the costs, if I had the money I would just prefer to pay and choose the fence.

fleetingmind

ElephantBoy57 said:

There is a duty on dog owners to keep their dogs under control. The fence is a different issue. What is yours and your neighbours status, social tenents, private tenants or homeowners. You can get a fence yourself or split the costs, if I had the money I would just prefer to pay and choose the fence.

Thanks.That is my main issue (dog) and I'll deal with that. Just riled me him trying to claim it's our fence. 
We've just spent 2k on our other fences and I'm not inclined to help them out initially. If it does prove to be mine I'll fix but if it's there's and I know they can afford it no way. 

hazyjo

Like I said though, nobody is obliged to even have a fence - let alone one you approve of. If you've spent £2k, how ugly would it look if the left side was some manky thing. Just put a nice one on your side of his fence.

Or maybe you could plant hedging if you don't want to look like you've given in?

greatcrested

£3 for the Title and £3 for the Plan here.

But frankly, in your position (and unless you are skint) I'd just put up your own quality fence next to the existing one ie just inside the boundary on your side.

Avoids negotiation with unpleasnat neighbour.

Avoids a dispute which needs declaring on sale

Avoids legal hassle.

Keeps dog out.

Regular posters will know I often suggest cake - but sounds like that wouldn't work - not even one like this

Scotbot

greatcrested said:

£3 for the Title and £3 for the Plan here.

But frankly, in your position (and unless you are skint) I'd just put up your own quality fence next to the existing one ie just inside the boundary on your side.

Avoids negotiation with unpleasnat neighbour.

Avoids a dispute which needs declaring on sale

Avoids legal hassle.

Keeps dog out.

Or more importantly to me keeps the dogs in.  I recently replaced a couple of fences and just went ahead and did it  without checking whose fences they were as I  couldn't bear to lose my dog and the cost of the fence was trivial in comparison.  The neighbour is a deeply unpleasant and irresponsible man who doesn't care about his own animals, he isn't  going to change. So I  agree go ahead and put up your own fence. Hedging won't work, dogs can still get through.

fleetingmind

Thank you for everyone's replies and input. Sadly I can't just put a fence next to it due to it being on a retaining wall would have to be huge and look really unsightly. . 
Our road is on a hill and the houses are staggered. 
First photo is looking up to the front of their property where they have a separate garage and store shed underneath. Their house is set back and down. The bushes is their garage and iron railings. Second photo is their garage and store shed under garage. Our house is on the right. Then the third photo show the garden retaining wall in line and joined up with their main retaining wall and house in the background. Then the 4th photo shows how it's not possible to put a fence next to it. Their photo shows only a fraction of how rubbish their fence/kitchen cupboards are. 
He says it's our responsibility so would that mean the retaining wall and  metal railing by his garage are all ours too as that is he boarder?!

princeofpounds

Hi fleetingmind. 

You really need to go and do what some other posters have suggested - go and read your title deeds and your neighbour's, and see what they actually say about fencing and boundaries. 

What often happens is that title deeds assign responsibility for a boundary to a particular property. However, that does NOT mean they are required to fence, but many people think that it does. Sometimes deeds say that a property must put a fence up, but surprisingly that also does not necessarily mean that they are required to fence - it is a so-called 'positive covenant' (as opposed to a negative covenant that tells you that you cannot do something) and these are often not binding on subsequent successors in title. Issues like this may be why your neighbour is claiming that you are responsible for fencing, although he is likely to be wrong on that too.

It is possible they have some kind of obligation, in fact the presence of a retaining wall makes it more likely than normal. But in the vast majority of these situations there is no obligation to maintain a fence. Until you clarify this situation exactly, no-one here can give you any real sense of your legal options regarding the fence itself.

As for erecting your own fence - yes you can. It would not need to be 'huge', there are a few options.
- With their permission (frankly you could just do it anyway given their claims about responsibility) you could attach fenceposts into the retaining wall and mount the fence that way. It would not look any different 
- You could build your own wall to a similar height to the retaining wall, and fence on top of that.
- You could just attach wire fencing to the back of the current fence, which would solve the dog ingress issue, if not the aesthetics issue. In combination with taller shrubs that block your view of the ugly panels, it would be a good cheap-ish fix to both of your main problems. It's probably what I would do.

Frankly I think wire is the best way to solve the dog problem in the short term, by far. However, if you are not worried about having a formal dispute with your neighbour, you can report them for an out of control dog. There are other options but I will not discuss them as they are not fair on the dog. 
http://www.problemneighbours.co.uk/problems-with-neighbours-dogs.html

fleetingmind

princeofpounds said:

Hi fleetingmind. 

You really need to go and do what some other posters have suggested - go and read your title deeds and your neighbour's, and see what they actually say about fencing and boundaries. 

What often happens is that title deeds assign responsibility for a boundary to a particular property. However, that does NOT mean they are required to fence, but many people think that it does. Sometimes deeds say that a property must put a fence up, but surprisingly that also does not necessarily mean that they are required to fence - it is a so-called 'positive covenant' (as opposed to a negative covenant that tells you that you cannot do something) and these are often not binding on subsequent successors in title. Issues like this may be why your neighbour is claiming that you are responsible for fencing, although he is likely to be wrong on that too.

It is possible they have some kind of obligation, in fact the presence of a retaining wall makes it more likely than normal. But in the vast majority of these situations there is no obligation to maintain a fence. Until you clarify this situation exactly, no-one here can give you any real sense of your legal options regarding the fence itself.

As for erecting your own fence - yes you can. It would not need to be 'huge', there are a few options.
- With their permission (frankly you could just do it anyway given their claims about responsibility) you could attach fenceposts into the retaining wall and mount the fence that way. It would not look any different 
- You could build your own wall to a similar height to the retaining wall, and fence on top of that.
- You could just attach wire fencing to the back of the current fence, which would solve the dog ingress issue, if not the aesthetics issue. In combination with taller shrubs that block your view of the ugly panels, it would be a good cheap-ish fix to both of your main problems. It's probably what I would do.

Frankly I think wire is the best way to solve the dog problem in the short term, by far. However, if you are not worried about having a formal dispute with your neighbour, you can report them for an out of control dog. There are other options but I will not discuss them as they are not fair on the dog. 
http://www.problemneighbours.co.uk/problems-with-neighbours-dogs.html

We're in the process of our getting the documents. We have now asked our conveyance solicitors to dig out the paperwork. I understand people couldn't provide specific legal advice as all cases are different. I was just unsure on what documents I would need and if i could obtain these online rather than have to get the solicitors to dig them out. 

I also understand they have no obligation to have any fence it's just the tone with my wife and the lies which has riled me. Probably is petty and in a few weeks i'll have calmed down. Just wanted to get my facts correct before i speak to them next.

Cheers.