Holiday pay while furloughed

Jeremy535897

sghughes42 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

In a normal world without furlough, if you hand in or are given notice, you will be paid for it if you work, if you take holiday instead of working, or are paid in lieu. Your employer has the right to ask you to take holiday if proper notice is given (twice the holiday if nothing different in the contract of employment), and would logically do so rather than paying you extra for it particularly while, as far as they are concerned, you are already on holiday.

This is what confuses me - why raise the prospect of being paid for unused holiday when in the majority of circumstances the employer is just going to tell you to take them during your notice period? Even in non-furlough circumstances it seems very unlikely anyone would get paid for unused holiday so why is that highlighted so much?

You would have to work those holidays otherwise. See https://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/if-an-employee-receives-a-payment-in-lieu-of-notice-will-their-annual-leave-entitlement-accrue-up-to-the-termination-date-or-the-end-of-the-notice-period/88429/ which also touches on your point.

poppy12345

sghughes42 said:

poppy12345 said:

If you live in England then hotels, holiday parks etc are all allowed to open from 4th July, providing they are covid secure.

That's true, I'm not clear if people who are shielding are permitted to go. Even if they are there is no way I'm risking my already compromised health until it is clearer things are under control.

If you've received the NHS shielding letter then this ends on 1st August anyway and then you can return to work.

calcotti

poppy12345 said:

sghughes42 said:

poppy12345 said:

If you live in England then hotels, holiday parks etc are all allowed to open from 4th July, providing they are covid secure.

That's true, I'm not clear if people who are shielding are permitted to go. Even if they are there is no way I'm risking my already compromised health until it is clearer things are under control.

If you've received the NHS shielding letter then this ends on 1st August anyway and then you can return to work.

"..as long as the business is COVID-safe". Unclear what an extremely vulnerable person is expected to do if their workplace is not - presumably they need to look for a different job.

sghughes42

poppy12345 said:

If you've received the NHS shielding letter then this ends on 1st August anyway and then you can return to work.

I'm assuming the point here is that from 1st August I could also go on holiday if I chose to. Which is fair enough, apart from the fact there won't be enough time to use all my accured holiday before my notice period would elapse.

I could return to work tomorrow as my role can be done from home - as far as I'm aware shielders aren't prevented from working if they can do so from home?

sghughes42

Jeremy535897 said:

You would have to work those holidays otherwise. See https://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/if-an-employee-receives-a-payment-in-lieu-of-notice-will-their-annual-leave-entitlement-accrue-up-to-the-termination-date-or-the-end-of-the-notice-period/88429/ which also touches on your point.

I've just checked and there appears to be nothing in my contract or the employee handbook that mentions them obliging us to take holidays, other than a note that we are obliged to take our statutory requirement and they will allocate time off if we don't book it in a timely manner.

Would that cover this case and if not is there a 'catch all' that they can do this even if it isn't specifically in a contract?

There is also a term that says if employment ends during a holiday year you are entitled to pay in lieu.

poppy12345

There's nothing stopping you working from home, if your employer agrees.

adamp87

sghughes42 said:

Could someone clear this up for me please?

Are employers allowed to make us take holiday and then claim that from the furlough scheme, or do they need to pay us from their own pocket for any holiday we have to take?

I'll be working my notice on furlough. My employer has agreed to pay 100% during this notice which is good, and they are using the fact they are topping up by 20% to ask me to work one day a week which I'm fine with to tidy up loose ends. What I'm not clear on is that also want us to take any holiday we are entitled to rather than paying us for it. If they can claim this back from the CRJS then fair enough, it minimises their costs, if not then surely it makes no difference to them to pay us as they can claim the full 80% furlough?

They are able to use your remaining holidays during this notice period. It prevents a further payout at the end, & smart really financially to take advantage of the furlough for it.

Could they just make you work 4 weeks notice & then pay you your holidays on top of your pay when you leave? Yes they could but they’ve decided not too. Nothing illegal or against your rights here

rosiesposies

employers can dictate when holidays are taken provided they give you enough notice. there is nothing unlawful about them making you take it if you cannot benefit; the benefit is statutory time off work and that is where the employers responsibility ends for leave. think teachers, factory workers during shutdown, christmas shutdowns etc. it is also smart to utilize furlough for this, not only financially but the impact of my large team all requesting leave when furlough ends. 

sghughes42

It is sobering to learn that when you are told to 'know your rights' and most of the rights you read about actually can be negated with things like this.

I guess I'm frustrated more than anything else - I could be working and my employer is actually turning down work to be able to make me redundant. It's galling but then I don't fully know the underlying financial issues so there may be something I'm not aware of.

Jeremy535897

sghughes42 said:

Jeremy535897 said:

You would have to work those holidays otherwise. See https://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/if-an-employee-receives-a-payment-in-lieu-of-notice-will-their-annual-leave-entitlement-accrue-up-to-the-termination-date-or-the-end-of-the-notice-period/88429/ which also touches on your point.

I've just checked and there appears to be nothing in my contract or the employee handbook that mentions them obliging us to take holidays, other than a note that we are obliged to take our statutory requirement and they will allocate time off if we don't book it in a timely manner.

Would that cover this case and if not is there a 'catch all' that they can do this even if it isn't specifically in a contract?

There is also a term that says if employment ends during a holiday year you are entitled to pay in lieu.

If the contract is silent, the Working Time Regulations 1998 apply, which provide that an employer may tell an employee to take holiday on a certain date, provided that the notice given is twice the length of the holiday. Having said that, if they don't, there is just a fine that can be imposed. Regulation 15 covers it (there have been amendments but not to the notice point):

"Dates on which leave is taken

15.—(1) A worker may take leave to which he is entitled under regulation 13(1) on such days as he may elect by giving notice to his employer in accordance with paragraph (3), subject to any requirement imposed on him by his employer under paragraph (2).

(2) A worker’s employer may require the worker—

(a)to take leave to which the worker is entitled under regulation 13(1); or

(b)not to take such leave,

on particular days, by giving notice to the worker in accordance with paragraph (3).

(3) A notice under paragraph (1) or (2)—

(a)may relate to all or part of the leave to which a worker is entitled in a leave year;

(b)shall specify the days on which leave is or (as the case may be) is not to be taken and, where the leave on a particular day is to be in respect of only part of the day, its duration; and

(c)shall be given to the employer or, as the case may be, the worker before the relevant date.

(4) The relevant date, for the purposes of paragraph (3), is the date—

(a)in the case of a notice under paragraph (1) or (2)(a), twice as many days in advance of the earliest day specified in the notice as the number of days or part-days to which the notice relates, and

(b)in the case of a notice under paragraph (2)(b), as many days in advance of the earliest day so specified as the number of days or part-days to which the notice relates.

(5) Any right or obligation under paragraphs (1) to (4) may be varied or excluded by a relevant agreement.

(6) This regulation does not apply to a worker to whom Schedule 2 applies (workers employed in agriculture) except where, in the case of a worker partly employed in agriculture, a relevant agreement so provides."