PayPal fee nightmare

cj_

Urgh, so here we go...
I recently decided to sell my bike as I wasn't using it, nor will I be for quite some time (babies now and all that).  I thought I'd put it on eBay, BIN or offer, Collection only clearly stipulated, and please only cash or bank transfer when you come and collect it (various reasons - one being that I'd hate to be screwed by someone collecting in person and then needed to prove they'd received it if they decided to play that car, the other being the big chunk PayPal end up taking).
So anyway, lots and lots of interest and offers.  One chap was pleasant enough and local, so he made an informal offer and I arranged for him to come and view so that he was 100% happy.  Ebay offers no sympathy or help if some 'buys' and never turns up, and I was in particular need of both the funds and the space.
So the guy said he was coming over, then disappeared off the radar.  He then made a 'best offer' we'd informally agreed before coming over to view.  Loved it, was very happy, so transferred the money and off he went.  Literally (really, literally) after he'd left I went straight to the laptop and tried to click 'accept' on his offer, but in that time I'd had another 5 or 6, so I was trying to find his.  Next thing I knew, they'd all expired - cue confusion.
So it turns out someone from the other side of the country had click BIN, immediately paid through PayPal and then started asking questions and talking about how they might be around in a few weeks time.  Part of it being pretty much nightmare stuff as far as selling immediately can go - didn't read the listing, obviously.

So anyway - I have no bike to sell by this point, and unfortunately BIN is quite a bit more than I'd accepted.
So I send him a message and go to cancel, but eBay can't do the PayPal bit - this is where I log into PayPal and find that I can't refund him unless I stump up £20 to cover what PayPal have immediately deducted.  I waited for ages to talk to eBay and they said "We've asked them to sort it - give them 24 hours".  By this point I'm aware that someone has paid a fair amount for something I haven't got.  
48 hours pass by with tetchy "buyer" asking about a refund, and so I talk to eBay again - they now say it's not their problem, talk to PayPal - by the way, they aren't answering the phone.  So I use their 'chat' which seems to be 8-10 hours per reply.  It's passed through 4 different advisors who also can't seem to read, and keep pasting in the "go to the transaction and click refund".   I can't actually do this because it either says "technical error" or "you don't have enough fund (obviously I have transaction fee less of the refund amount".  One advisor said "Nothing to worry you can issue a refund and the money will definitely credited back to your buyer's card. Once you issue a refund we can canceled the payment fee", but my next reply went to another advisor who pasted in a bit about how I wouldn't get the £20 back.  

It probably goes without saying that I am having a bit of mild anxiety about finding £20 to throw away here.

There are lessons to be learnt on my behalf because I didn't know any of this could even happen.  I would have sucked up the fee if I'd have ended up selling to this person, but it feels brutal in terms of how it has occurred.

Part of me is annoyed with the "buyer", and part of me is sympathetic and annoyed with the eBay/PayPal combination apathy.  I guess this is a 'what would you do?'.  I have gone back to PayPal again asking why one person has said it can be all sorted, but the next is saying there's no way I'll get the transaction fee returned. 

soolin

I’m sorry but there is no ‘free’ way out of this mess. PayPal have been keeping all the fees now for about 6 months, many of us feel it is a bit excessive but the rules are clear and by staying with PayPal we were all deemed to accept the change.

You will have to upload the fees part from your bank sell something else quickly to cover it, and get that refund done before buyer gets too angry at being messed about. If you refund without uploading money first it will go as an echeque and that is to be avoided. 

The sticky thread about collection problems is here 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4949988/collection-only-items/p1

As I often say I don’t think ebay is the best place for collection only items as there is so much that can go wrong.

You also have other issues and personally I wouldn’t be making any contact with eBay as selling ‘off’ eBay is not allowed and by selling privately you have broken the rules and eBay may charge you again for the fees or restrict your account. As it stands that first sale is completely off eBay, no sale occurred through eBay nor were any fees paid and I would not bring that to eBay’s attention. 

As it stands at the moment you are in a mess as if you cancel the sale that did take place on eBay - then your only sale is likely to get you suspended. If you refund the PayPal payment ASAP and just stay quiet you will pay your eBay fees but might stay under the eBay radar about breach of rules, and that might be the better option.

Remember as well when uploading the PayPal fee money that you will also need to pay the eBay fees as well. 

cj_

soolin said:

You also have other issues and personally I wouldn’t be making any contact with eBay as selling ‘off’ eBay is not allowed and by selling privately you have broken the rules and eBay may charge you again for the fees or restrict your account. As it stands that first sale is completely off eBay, no sale occurred through eBay nor were any fees paid and I would not bring that to eBay’s attention. 

As it stands at the moment you are in a mess as if you cancel the sale that did take place on eBay - then your only sale is likely to get you suspended. If you refund the PayPal payment ASAP and just stay quiet you will pay your eBay fees but might stay under the eBay radar about breach of rules, and that might be the better option.

That's not at all correct, as I have spoken to eBay twice about it and they completely understood.
The reality is that I was fully prepared to complete the transaction on eBay, but their own daft system has prevented this from occurring.  They didn't seem interested in the £1 they would be owed in a final value fee, apparently - they just said "if you want to do it that way, otherwise it doesn't matter".

As I wasn't actively avoiding the fee, there's no issue.  I'm sure eBay would actively encourage people to take precautions before committing to buying something, and that's what occurred.  The problem they have is that they will allow someone to "Buy It Now" when active offers are pending which, to me and I'm sure many, is a ridiculous system when made in conjunction with an item that is collection only.  Facebook's "pending" status is a good example of how they could do it better.

As far as the landscape seems, the whole issue seems to be something of a disgruntlement between eBay and PayPal ahead of the loss of exclusivity I feel.  I'm more upset that on several occasions I was reassured by both eBay and PayPal that they would refund the whole fee, but the final word is that someone has to pay for it.

martindow

Be careful accepting what you have been told by Ebay.  There are lots of threads here where Ebay seem willing to say anything on the phone to finish the call quickly, but you can't necessarily rely on their advice.

soolin

cj_ said:

soolin said:

You also have other issues and personally I wouldn’t be making any contact with eBay as selling ‘off’ eBay is not allowed and by selling privately you have broken the rules and eBay may charge you again for the fees or restrict your account. As it stands that first sale is completely off eBay, no sale occurred through eBay nor were any fees paid and I would not bring that to eBay’s attention. 

As it stands at the moment you are in a mess as if you cancel the sale that did take place on eBay - then your only sale is likely to get you suspended. If you refund the PayPal payment ASAP and just stay quiet you will pay your eBay fees but might stay under the eBay radar about breach of rules, and that might be the better option.

That's not at all correct, as I have spoken to eBay twice about it and they completely understood.
The reality is that I was fully prepared to complete the transaction on eBay, but their own daft system has prevented this from occurring.  They didn't seem interested in the £1 they would be owed in a final value fee, apparently - they just said "if you want to do it that way, otherwise it doesn't matter".

As I wasn't actively avoiding the fee, there's no issue.  I'm sure eBay would actively encourage people to take precautions before committing to buying something, and that's what occurred.  The problem they have is that they will allow someone to "Buy It Now" when active offers are pending which, to me and I'm sure many, is a ridiculous system when made in conjunction with an item that is collection only.  Facebook's "pending" status is a good example of how they could do it better.

As far as the landscape seems, the whole issue seems to be something of a disgruntlement between eBay and PayPal ahead of the loss of exclusivity I feel.  I'm more upset that on several occasions I was reassured by both eBay and PayPal that they would refund the whole fee, but the final word is that someone has to pay for it.

As above I would be cautious believing customer services as they are notorious in not actually knowing how eBay UK works. The last offer (May) for £1 FVFs for instance only applied if PayPal was used and did not apply to collected items where cash was used, I haven’t read the t and cs of any current offers and of course eBay offers don’t always follow their rules anyway. 

As for the idea that eBay care about people viewing items, no they don’t. They have Gumtree for face to face sales, eBay is quite clear you buy if you want something.

Paypal are usually quite good with their information and if you were told you would get the fees back it might be worth pressing them for a goodwill gesture , otherwise your priority is now to get money into your PayPal to refund. 

Incidentally even if they give back the bulk of the PayPal fees as a goodwill gesture remember that you still need to cover the 30p that they have always retained. 

soolin

From the current £1 FVF cap for private sellers:

https://pages.ebay.co.uk/promos/1c7186/#tc

Restrictions & exclusions

Items sold and paid for by any payment method other than PayPal, credit card, debit card, or PayPal Credit.

More importantly for the OP's situation also excluded:

Items sold and paid for by the buyer during the Promotional Period but where payment is reimbursed partially or totally at a later date due to a return or for any other reason.

So when the paypal payment is refunded  the full fee becomes payable.
That does however assume ebay know their T and cs of the offer and I suspect they may have put these exemptions in and then ignore them.