Furlough and new job

stilllivingbasic

Hi all

Seen similar threads but think mines slightly different so posting to see if you can help out and provide clarification. Generally I'm fairly clued up but confused with my particular situation.

Around early march before lockdown i was told by the employer that there is no work and to go home, and that they were unable to confirm how long the leave would be for and when to return- so assumed i was being laid off after 4 years of working for them. Luckily, the next day I found a job, working as self employed for another company in the same industry. A week later, Boris announced lockdown and then not long after Rishi announced the furlough pay job retention scheme. While working as SE, i kept in contact with my employer to ask about the possibility of furlough pay (as i understand you can work elsewhere and have furlough pay from employer unaffected) and how they saw the situation but kept getting told they are checking with the accountant. They did say there are looking into it.  Now in early June i received payslips in the post showing the furlough pay breakdown for April and May, however received no payment. The employer knows I am working elsewhere and between getting laid of and job retention scheme being announced agreed that (at least temporarily)  it is better than doing nothing and having uncertain employment with them. I am intending to return to this employer when there is work again however not sure how to proceed at this stage regarding the furlough pay shown on received payslips. Surely they have to release these funds to me? Is it possible they have not yet received the grant? i havent received any furlough letter if that helps
thanks

calcotti

I'm not clear if you are saying the payslips show no pay or that they show pay but that you have not received anything.

If they show no pay that may be confirmation that you are unpaid leave. If they show pay but you haven't received it you need to speak to the employer. If they have received money from CJRS and not passed it to you that would be fraud (which I think is punishable by up to 10 years in prison).

stilllivingbasic

Thanks thats what i thought. Payslips show 80% pay for both months. I will contact the employer and assume they have not yet received the grant and waiting for it to come through before paying me...

sleepyjones

But working another job during the same contractual hours would also be fraud, as you wouldn't have been entitled to Furlough pay in the first place ... tricky one.

[Deleted User]

stilllivingbasic said:

Thanks thats what i thought. Payslips show 80% pay for both months. I will contact the employer and assume they have not yet received the grant and waiting for it to come through before paying me...

There is not realistically a way that they have not been paid the grant, it takes a maximum of 6 days, most companies receive the money in 3-4 days, there is not way that if they have claimed the money they have not been paid yet. 

As you have payslips, but no pay and as you now have new employment so do not need to return you will probably be in the unfortunate situation of having to take legal action to recover your wages. If they have taken the CJRS money but not paid it to you then the directors have committed fraud and are personally liable. 

stilllivingbasic

Its all very confusing tbh. I started the self employed job after being ‚laid off’ but before the whole cjrs scheme and details were announced. It seems counterintuitive to now stop working As SE especially as i still dont know if i am on furlough with the employer (as i received no letter confirming i am being placed on furlough), or if there will be any work to come back to ( as so many companies are either closing or making mass reduncies after furlough scheme)!?!?

Jeremy535897

If they have received money from CJRS and not passed it to you that would be fraud (which I think is punishable by up to 10 years in prison).

There seems to be a heavy use of the word "fraud" on this thread. Employers who claim CJRS knowing that they will not pass it on to the employee when they claim will, if discovered, face total recovery of the amount claimed and probably a penalty on top. Prosecutions are likely to be used in only the worst cases. Delays in passing on the benefit of CJRS to employees are not fraud.

But working another job during the same contractual hours would also be fraud, as you wouldn't have been entitled to Furlough pay in the first place ... tricky one.

It may be a breach of the conditions of the contract of employment, but easily overcome by seeking permission. It has absolutely nothing to do with CJRS rules and is not any sort of a crime, never mind fraud.

If they have taken the CJRS money but not paid it to you then the directors have committed fraud and are personally liable. 

See above. Directors only become personally liable, under the draft legislation, if the company wrongly claimed under the CJRS and the company is insolvent or approaching insolvency.

stilllivingbasic

 Delays in passing on the benefit of CJRS to employees are not fraud.

Does anyone know if there is a way to check if the employer has made the CJRS claim and/or received the grant? Asking the employer to confirm this is not very reliable is it? Surely there must be some means for employees to independently protect themselves against being exploited and not be entirely dependent on their employer? Seems SE workers have it so much better with SEISS despite paying a fraction in NI when compared to employees

Jeremy535897

If your payslips say your employer paid you X on Y date, they are supposed to pay you X on Y date. Whether or not they recover the money under the CJRS scheme does not affect that, unless the claim was rejected and your furlough agreement allows them to recover the claim from your wages. You cannot see what they claim under CJRS, no doubt because it will be in one lump applicable to several employees, so there would be data protection issues.

See https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/pay-and-contracts/pay/our-employer-has-not-paid-us-any-money-week-what-can-we-do

Grumpy_chap

Is the new job something the old employer would or could see as being in competition with them?  

stilllivingbasic

The new job is in the same industry as the old one but not direct competition. I.e old employer was home Renovator whereas new company only does loft refurbs. Obviously if its convinient then yes of course the old employer can say its direct competition, but using that logic the only way for it not to be competition would be to work in an entirely different industry e.g becoming a farmer.

That aside, the main issue i have is that I have received payslips showing the furlough but not been paid. The confilct of interest element imo is negligable at this point because the payslips were issued months after starting the new work and with the old employer acknowledging me working at the position and me telling them about the company and services