Should I post in The Gazette?

mcnallington

Hi there,

Hoping to get a little bit of advice on my next steps with dealing with my late father's estate. I am administering the estate but am his only child. He was unmarried and did not own his own home at the time of his death. He passed away in November 2019 with 5 outstanding credit card debts. He also still owed a debt to the bank for outstanding mortgage shortfall and loan debts which were not recovered by the sale of his house, which was repossessed in 2010 (and I think was sold in 2012). My dad has never paid any money back to any creditors. I notified the creditors about his death at the end of last year and advised that the estate will be insolvent. 

The three debt purchasing companies which are owed money for the five credit card debts all told me that they would pass on to Philips and Cohen. Philips and Cohen contacted me in January regarding two of these (passed on by one of the debt purchasing companies). I spoke to Philips and Cohen in March and again today, but they have still heard nothing from the other two debt purchasing companies about the other three debts. Do I need to chase this up with the debt purchasing companies or is this now their responsibility to chase up?

I also contacted the bank and the solicitors that were dealing with this outstanding debt. I sent a copy of the death cert. to the solicitors and they passed it onto the bank. The solicitors were unauthorised to tell me anything about the debt and advised me to contact the bank. After some to-ing and fro-ing from different departments and several phonecalls*, the bank managed to find out that the accounts relating to my father were 'closed in 2016'. I know the bank debts were for a significant sum (far more than left in the estate and more than owed for all credit card debts) but don't know exactly how much and nobody seems able to tell me. The bank can't tell me what happened to that account, just that it was closed. I can't believe that the debt would be written off, but neither the solicitors nor the bank knew of his most recent address, so it may have been sold onto a debt purchasing company who has been unable to track my dad down. 

Is now the time to post in The Gazette? Will this solve my problems, both with respect to the credit card debts and the bank debts?

Then to follow up, can I post in The Gazette? I was under the impression that, as the value of the estate is small, that I do not need to have a grant of probate or letter of administration. There was less than £10,000 in my dad's account when he passed away, with some monies (refunds, holiday pay, flat rent deposit etc.) coming in and funeral/administration costs going out taking the value of the estate to around £6,000 now. On The Gazette website, it says:

'Notices can only be accepted from solicitors of the Supreme Court, a duly authorised official of a London Clearing bank, or, in the case of trustees, on presentation of the trust deed or relevant appointment document; and, in the case of personal representatives, on presentation of a copy of the death certificate, grant of probate or letter of administration'

which suggests that, as a personal representative, I can post a deceased estates notice using just the death certificate. Is that correct? 

I presume that it would be a sensible precaution to also have this placed in a local newspaper, which adds a hefty sum onto the price tag to place the notice. Is this a cost incurred by the estate or by me personally?

I would be incredibly grateful for any advice. I had been stuck with this for a while before I even found about The Gazette, and just haven't got around to sorting anything out yet. I put it off for a bit, as with lockdown I assumed that there must be far more important stuff going on at the moment, but I've realised this isn't going to go anywhere until I sort it out so I had better just crack on!
Thanks in advance!  


*The bank bereavement team told me they knew nothing and I should call the solicitors again, they told me they couldn't tell me anything and I should call the bank, the bereavement team told me to call the mortgage team, the mortgage team told me to call the bereavement team, the bereavement team told me to write them a letter, the letter was useless to I rang the bereavement team, the bereavement team told me they would get somebody to respond to my letter properly, thank didn’t happen and I haven’t heard from the bank since January

Flugelhorn

normally posting in the gazette is done before the estate is passed onto the  beneficiaries, it is done to protect the executor from anyone turning up later and saying that the deceased owed them money. it only protects the executor but not the beneficiaries who may still be liable if they have inherited from the estate. 
If there is no money and you aren't going to inherit anything then putting notice in the gazette will make no difference other than dig up more angry creditors who will discover that there is no money.
The question about whether you can walk away comes down to how much "intermeddling" has happened

AnotherJoe

If you can you need to wash your hands of it and walk away. 

Any communications from any debtors,  reply with a short letter stating that the estate is insolvent,  you are not administering, and hope they don't follow up. 

frayedknot

Don't put it in the Gazette yet.

Take the £6,000, put it in bank account. Tell your father's creditors the estate is insolvent, which is true. Hope that none of them pursue it and that they all  write it off,  some of them seem to have done this already and this is chicken- feed to most financial institutions.

After 7 years the money is yours.

If any do claim that is the time for the Gazette ad.

Alternatively just walk away because this could get messy.

Keep_pedalling

frayedknot said:

Don't put it in the Gazette yet.

Take the £6,000, put it in bank account. Tell your father's creditors the estate is insolvent, which is true. Hope that none of them pursue it and that they all  write it off,  some of them seem to have done this already and this is chicken- feed to most financial institutions.

After 7 years the money is yours.

If any do claim that is the time for the Gazette ad.

Alternatively just walk away because this could get messy.

Not good advice, the estate is insolvent and the OP should not attempt to administer it, unless they want to risk becoming responsible for the debt which they could do if they get it wrong.

Funeral costs can be met by the money in the account but the OP should arrange for the FD to be paid by directly the bank. After that they should simply inform the creditors that the estate is insolvent and that no one is administering the estate, then walk away.

Malthusian

frayedknot said:

Alternatively just walk away because this could get messy.

You could have skipped to that part. If the OP wants to steal £6,000 there are much lower risk ways of going about it. Shoplifting expensive items, investment fraud, etc.

The OP should walk away. Although they have done a lot of toing and froing, they haven't handled the money so I would hope that they could still walk away. It would be cheaper for the creditors to pay their lawyers to administer the estate than to pay their lawyers to try to force the OP to deal with the estate.

mcnallington

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your advice. With regards to just walking away, will I need to give the £6,000 to Philips and Cohen first? As they are the only company who has actually got in touch with me, thus the only creditors I know of, and are dealing with debts more than the £6,000, should I pay this to them and then it's all dealt with? The funeral costs etc. were paid out of the original account, but that account was subsequently closed and the money transferred to me. It has sat untouched in its own separate account and I have transferred in the other monies from refunds and the like as they have arrived from other companies. Or does the fact that I already have the money complicate the issue?

Flugelhorn

mcnallington said:

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your advice. With regards to just walking away, will I need to give the £6,000 to Philips and Cohen first? As they are the only company who has actually got in touch with me, thus the only creditors I know of, and are dealing with debts more than the £6,000, should I pay this to them and then it's all dealt with? The funeral costs etc. were paid out of the original account, but that account was subsequently closed and the money transferred to me. It has sat untouched in its own separate account and I have transferred in the other monies from refunds and the like as they have arrived from other companies. Or does the fact that I already have the money complicate the issue?

No, it may well be that you do need to advertise and find out if there are more debts and then pay them in the proper order - if you pay all the money to someone then someone higher up the list may appear and demand that it goes to them instead . https://www.bereavementadvice.org/topics/probate-and-legal/insolvent-estates/

AnotherJoe

mcnallington said:

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your advice. With regards to just walking away, will I need to give the £6,000 to Philips and Cohen first? As they are the only company who has actually got in touch with me, thus the only creditors I know of, and are dealing with debts more than the £6,000, should I pay this to them and then it's all dealt with? 

Absolutely not !! The other creditors will want full payment then as well, where's that coming from ? Some of that £6k is their money, is it not? What gives you the right to give it to someone else?

It will need to be allocated fairly and you seem to be putting yourself in the crosshairs of being the mug doing that. 

The problem is, you've now taken some of the money and now you have to allocate it. Hindsight but a better thing to do woudl have been to pay the funeral directly from the account and leave the rest there, buy some soap and wash your hands of it.
as it is, maybe you coudl get a solicitor To take over and their fee woudl be, I dunno maybe £6k. 

Unfortunately I don't have any advice that doesn't really involve a time machine.
Perhaps  just write back to all of them saying the estate is insolvent and no one is administering it and hope they give up and you do get the £6k in 6years ? 

Keep_pedalling

AnotherJoe said:

mcnallington said:

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your advice. With regards to just walking away, will I need to give the £6,000 to Philips and Cohen first? As they are the only company who has actually got in touch with me, thus the only creditors I know of, and are dealing with debts more than the £6,000, should I pay this to them and then it's all dealt with? 

Absolutely not !! The other creditors will want full payment then as well, where's that coming from ? Some of that £6k is their money, is it not? What gives you the right to give it to someone else?

It will need to be allocated fairly and you seem to be putting yourself in the crosshairs of being the mug doing that. 

The problem is, you've now taken some of the money and now you have to allocate it. Hindsight but a better thing to do woudl have been to pay the funeral directly from the account and leave the rest there, buy some soap and wash your hands of it.
as it is, maybe you coudl get a solicitor To take over and their fee woudl be, I dunno maybe £6k. 

Unfortunately I don't have any advice that doesn't really involve a time machine.
Perhaps  just write back to all of them saying the estate is insolvent and no one is administering it and hope they give up and you do get the £6k in 6years ? 

From the OPs opening post P&G are handling the debts of all 3 known creditors. If the gazette post brings no others out of the woodwork then life should be easy for him and what’s left of the estate can be handed over can be passed to P&G.

AnotherJoe

Keep_pedalling said:

AnotherJoe said:

mcnallington said:

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your advice. With regards to just walking away, will I need to give the £6,000 to Philips and Cohen first? As they are the only company who has actually got in touch with me, thus the only creditors I know of, and are dealing with debts more than the £6,000, should I pay this to them and then it's all dealt with? 

Absolutely not !! The other creditors will want full payment then as well, where's that coming from ? Some of that £6k is their money, is it not? What gives you the right to give it to someone else?

It will need to be allocated fairly and you seem to be putting yourself in the crosshairs of being the mug doing that. 

The problem is, you've now taken some of the money and now you have to allocate it. Hindsight but a better thing to do woudl have been to pay the funeral directly from the account and leave the rest there, buy some soap and wash your hands of it.
as it is, maybe you coudl get a solicitor To take over and their fee woudl be, I dunno maybe £6k. 

Unfortunately I don't have any advice that doesn't really involve a time machine.
Perhaps  just write back to all of them saying the estate is insolvent and no one is administering it and hope they give up and you do get the £6k in 6years ? 

From the OPs opening post P&G are handling the debts of all 3 known creditors. If the gazette post brings no others out of the woodwork then life should be easy for him and what’s left of the estate can be handed over can be passed to P&G.

Thansk i missed that. Then i suppose the answer is yes.