Cheapest/Greenest car to run?

BOWFER

You won't get a good Leaf for £5k, not a chance.
Zoe is the only option for that money.

oldagetraveller1

"Cheapest/Greenest car to run?"

How about my 1962 Morris Minor 1000? Zero V.E.D. and sub £80/annum comprehensive insurance. It's very green too, Almond Green!

Ditzy_Mitzy

Would you also need to consider the ethical aspects of electric vehicles, in particular the environmental damage done by lithium extraction and the reported involvement of child and slave labour in the process?  I've got an old petrol car that paid its dues, in terms of emissions from manufacture, many years ago and was made in Europe out of bits, by and large, coming from Europe.  Not perfect, of course, but probably better.

DrEskimo

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Would you also need to consider the ethical aspects of electric vehicles, in particular the environmental damage done by lithium extraction and the reported involvement of child and slave labour in the process?  I've got an old petrol car that paid its dues, in terms of emissions from manufacture, many years ago and was made in Europe out of bits, by and large, coming from Europe.  Not perfect, of course, but probably better.

It's certainly an important area to highlight, but I would shy away from comparing the two in any claim that one is 'better'.
Oil extraction is hardly exempt from its own environmental and ethically questionably practices...

If anything, I feel that the massive advantage with battery technology is the ability (certainly not a reality yet though) in being fully recyclable. It is feasible for an entirely closed supply chain, whereby old batteries are recycled and repurposed for new batteries without the need for further extraction. This is and always will be impossible with ICE.

The issue is also not specific to EV's. Unless you feel just as strongly about the use of lithium and happy to abandon any laptop, phone or just about any portable piece of technology, this is an area that needs to be addressed, regardless of whether you drive an EV or not.

MinuteNoodles

Petriix said:
 I would easily save that over the life of the vehicle, especially as I have solar PV which will cover a significant portion of my regular miles.

Only if the energy created by that solar PV was being used for the charging of the vehicle but I suspect that like most people who have solar PV installed you tend to run your household off it, especially energy hungry appliances like washing machines, dish washers and tumble driers at the hours of the day when generation is at it's peak.
If you're charging your EV overnight you most definitely aren't using solar to charge it, you're using whatever the grid is sending down the mains generated by whatever methods the grid is using to meet demand and on a quiet non-windy day that's going to be mostly gas, biomass and waste incineration.

MinuteNoodles

DrEskimo said:
Oil extraction is hardly exempt from its own environmental and ethically questionably practices...

If anything, I feel that the massive advantage with battery technology is the ability (certainly not a reality yet though) in being fully recyclable.

The issue is also not specific to EV's. Unless you feel just as strongly about the use of lithium and happy to abandon any laptop, phone or just about any portable piece of technology, this is an area that needs to be addressed, regardless of whether you drive an EV or not.

Lithium is only mined by large open caste mines and often in countries which have no environmental laws forcing the mining companies to revert the land when operations cease.



And whilst lithium batteries can be recycled they're not being because it is much cheaper to just create new ones than it is to recycle one.
As for laptops and phones etc. The Tesla Model S has 6800 batteries in their battery pack, each with as large or larger size of a mobile phone battery. 

Petriix

MinuteNoodles said:

Petriix said:
 I would easily save that over the life of the vehicle, especially as I have solar PV which will cover a significant portion of my regular miles.

Only if the energy created by that solar PV was being used for the charging of the vehicle but I suspect that like most people who have solar PV installed you tend to run your household off it, especially energy hungry appliances like washing machines, dish washers and tumble driers at the hours of the day when generation is at it's peak.
If you're charging your EV overnight you most definitely aren't using solar to charge it, you're using whatever the grid is sending down the mains generated by whatever methods the grid is using to meet demand and on a quiet non-windy day that's going to be mostly gas, biomass and waste incineration.

Unsurprisingly, as someone with solar panels, I'm acutely aware of how it works. You'd have to be pretty ignorant to think that overnight charging would be somehow solar powered.

I was referring to the electricity I would actually directly divert into the car when the sun is shining. My Zappi EVSE is able to monitor the current level of export and start/stop charging when it meets the desired threshold. I was able to add around 4000 miles with solar to the EV I used between February and November last year.

Obviously I charged from the grid as well, but the solar and my usage pattern make it viable to generate a significant amount of the mileage from the sun. Take a look at the recent average CO2 per kWh from the grid. It's vastly better per mile than any ICE vehicle. 

Scrapit

No mention of WVO? You've changed MSE

almillar

MinuteNoodles said:

And whilst lithium batteries can be recycled they're not being because it is much cheaper to just create new ones than it is to recycle one.

You're not serious? Batteries out of cars can be reUSED before being recycled, in static storage, and there's a huge market for them, just waiting for them to fail!

Pick one - either Lithium is difficult to extract, or batteries are too expensive to recycle - both can't be the case!

forgotmyname

almillar said:

MinuteNoodles said:

And whilst lithium batteries can be recycled they're not being because it is much cheaper to just create new ones than it is to recycle one.

Pick one - either Lithium is difficult to extract, or batteries are too expensive to recycle - both can't be the case!

Yes both can be the case. Lithium is difficult to extract but more cost effective to do than recycle some old battery
 pack of an uknown quantity.

Same with a lot of plastics, its cheaper and better for the enviroment to create new plastic than recycle
old waste plastic.