How much do you spend in retirement ?

zagfles

ratechaser said:

zagfles said:

Jaco70 said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

zagfles said:

ratechaser said:

Zagfles - coming back on your points on travel economies....  So although the MSE in me will be looking for good deals on J class travel (wife isn't going to buy into tricks like ex-EU or convoluted indirect routings so that's out), and nicer hotels, it's likely to net off versus the relatively cheap and cheerful family holidays we have right now. And I haggle hard when booking them, believe me!

Plus the kids have got wise to the fact that mum and dad pay for nice holidays and have suggested they'll be happy to tag along for some years yet 

Yes, I'm with your wife, the travel board is full of people coming up with weird convoluted routes to get cheaper BC flights!

If you are ever able to change your respective minds, flying ex-eu is a wonderful way to ease the pressure on your wallet, whilst
flying on a flatbed, enjoying a good meal - the positioning flight pre and post holiday is all part of the trip !

Sorry to seem dim, but these messages have been a bit lost on me. What’s ‘ex-eu’ and ‘BC flights’? I gather it’s about doing things more cheaply, which is common to us as we regularly travel to Manchester or Gatwick even though we live in Cardiff, but I didn’t understand the abbreviations. 

Sorry we can sometimes forget this isn't the travel board!

BC is business class, generally bigger seats which can convert to a bed, more room, better food and a few other advantages, however usually considerably more expensive than "economy", perhaps £1000+ more each!

Ex-EU means getting a long haul flight originating in an EU country eg France, Germany, which apparently in BC can be considerably cheaper than BC from the UK. Probably due to taxes.

So what some people do is book BC ex-EU but this of course means they need to get to France/Germany first, for which they need a "positioning flight", usually on a different booking/airline, which means the long haul airline wouldn't cover you if your positioning flight were cancelled/delayed. As such contingency is needed, I think most people book the day before, which obviously means they need an overnight stay.

To an extent yes, but really more about marketing. BA for example can't fill its planes just selling to the UK market, so they advertise globally - problem is if you're in The Netherlands (for example), why would you really want an indirect BA flight from Amsterdam to London and then on to <wherever> ,when KLM would fly you directly to <wherever> - leading BA to have to sell it cheaper from that indirect starting point. And you do get some very good sale fares. Crazy that it's cheaper to actually fly more overall, but that's how it works, very consistently. Indirect is cheaper because it's more hassle.

Personally I'd be all for taking that positioning flight and spending a weekend in Amsterdam to start a holiday off. But on the way back you'd have to do the same - your end point wouldn't be London and the airlines take a dim view of people that repeatedly skip the 'last leg' flight because they are obviously gaming the system to get a cheaper flight...

Hence why I don't think I'd ever persuade Mrs RC. Far more of a functional traveller than me.

But presumably the same applies to KLM as BA, ie they charge less for an indirect flight eg LHR-AMS-SIN than just AMS-SIN. I wouldn't be averse to that - as it's on the same booking and therefore your bags will be checked through, and if the LHR-AMS leg is delayed so you miss the long haul flight, the airline will have to reschedule you onto a later flight, providing meals and overnight accomodation if required.

But it seems for some reason a typical BA indirect booking AMS-LHR-SIN is generally cheaper than a KLM booking LHR-AMS-SIN even though both are indirect.

The non-use of the final leg can only work if you have no checked baggage, as your bags will be checked through to the final destination on an indirect flight.

Jaco70

ElephantBoy57 said:

I have just added up how much I will get if I retire at retirement age, 67, I will get £20k if you add up my private pension, state pension and be better off by not paying my mortgage.

My earnings have varied in recent years, between £15k-£18k

I am surprised it's so much. I work local for a local authority, so the £7,573.72 will probably increase. Not sure if that estimate includes what I am likely to earn in the future.

£9,141.69 state pension

I’m glad you’re pleased with your predicted income, I remember the same thing happening to my dad about 15 years back, and he’s still over the moon with what he gets. His state pension is not far short of 250pw and his private pension about 195pw (both far higher than he’d anticipated) mainly due to his best earning years being in the 1970s from what I can gather. And he still works, so gets dividends, although not huge ones.
I sense that long haul holidays eat up a lot of some peoples retirement income, but I expect our travel costs to be reasonable compared to what we spend now. We’ve always been forced to go during holiday times, Xmas and Easter usually, always for four people and not much in the way of bargains. Also, I have little interest in long haul because I love Europe so much and this can definitely be done relatively inexpensively. 

zagfles

Jaco70 said:

ElephantBoy57 said:

I have just added up how much I will get if I retire at retirement age, 67, I will get £20k if you add up my private pension, state pension and be better off by not paying my mortgage.

My earnings have varied in recent years, between £15k-£18k

I am surprised it's so much. I work local for a local authority, so the £7,573.72 will probably increase. Not sure if that estimate includes what I am likely to earn in the future.

£9,141.69 state pension

I’m glad you’re pleased with your predicted income, I remember the same thing happening to my dad about 15 years back, and he’s still over the moon with what he gets. His state pension is not far short of 250pw and his private pension about 195pw (both far higher than he’d anticipated) mainly due to his best earning years being in the 1970s from what I can gather. And he still works, so gets dividends, although not huge ones.
I sense that long haul holidays eat up a lot of some peoples retirement income, but I expect our travel costs to be reasonable compared to what we spend now. We’ve always been forced to go during holiday times, Xmas and Easter usually, always for four people and not much in the way of bargains. Also, I have little interest in long haul because I love Europe so much and this can definitely be done relatively inexpensively. 

Long haul holidays can be cheaper than Europe - generally long haul destinations are cheaper than Europe once you're there (hotels, eating out, touristy stuff etc), so if you stay a long time, say 3+ weeks, the higher flight cost can be outweighed by the lower costs at the destination.

Murphy_The_Cat

zagfles said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

zagfles said:

ratechaser said:

Zagfles - coming back on your points on travel economies....  So although the MSE in me will be looking for good deals on J class travel (wife isn't going to buy into tricks like ex-EU or convoluted indirect routings so that's out), and nicer hotels, it's likely to net off versus the relatively cheap and cheerful family holidays we have right now. And I haggle hard when booking them, believe me!

Plus the kids have got wise to the fact that mum and dad pay for nice holidays and have suggested they'll be happy to tag along for some years yet 

Yes, I'm with your wife, the travel board is full of people coming up with weird convoluted routes to get cheaper BC flights!

If you are ever able to change your respective minds, flying ex-eu is a wonderful way to ease the pressure on your wallet, whilst
flying on a flatbed, enjoying a good meal - the positioning flight pre and post holiday is all part of the trip !

Way OT - but for me far too much messing around, positioning flight to somewhere in EU, hanging around airport, collecting bags, going through passport control, finding hotel, one night, getting up and back through it all again, what if positioning flight is cancelled etc..unlikely to be on the same booking...

As an example when we went to NZ, we deliberately booked a 10 hour connection in Singapore and booked the airside transit hotel. Landed there about 9am, about 2am UK time, so didn't need to sleep on the plane. Straight to transit hotel in the airport, no need to collect bags as they were checked through, no immigration, passport control etc, airside all the time. Quiet private room, no windows, so wouldn't know it was daytime. Lovely 8 hours kip, then up for the evening flight to Auckland, which for us was morning as we'd just got up!

So no need to kip on either flight, could make full use of the free booze, inc cocktails, plus SIA's extensive entertainment range inc recently released films.

I've been on loads of long haul economy flights and even for 12 hours or so they're much more enjoyable than typical 3-4 hour budget airline flights which I find a chore. I think a lot of people think if they fly economy they'll get a Ryanair type experience for 4 times as long and shudder thinking about it...really not the case IME, but may depend on airline, I've mostly used flag carriers.

But the big difference is getting a good kip - I'd consider BC if I couldn't spare the time for a long connection, but as we talking retirement here, we'll be time rich so taking an extra 10 hours or so to get there won't be an issue. Also getting to kip in a private hotel room with private facilities rather than what is effectively a "sky dorm" with shared facilities with people snoring around you (I remember my days in hostel dorms!).

IIRC the transit hotel was quite cheap, under £100 for 4 of us, ie £25 each, compare that to the difference between economy and BC!

Sorry for the OT rambling...

I'll give my OT reply, then let the post return to nprmal again.  My most recent trip wasn't disimilar to yours, in the respect that we went to NZ.

Took positioning flight To Stockholm the day before (making sure that there were another 2 flights to Stockholm we could take, if our flight was cancelled).  Spent the night in a nice hotel, that was within the airport.

Up early the next morning to checkin, then spent some time enjoying the complimentary BC longue in Stockholm airport.

Got onto the Singapore Airlines plane and took our seat

Spent the next 14 or so hours being very, very well looked after, eating some fine food, enjoying some fine drinks and taking advantage of the lie flat bed for some kip.

Got to Singapore, took advantage of the City tour for few hours, went to the BC longue to enjoy some complimentary food and drinks, showered and refreshed.

Joined our next plane for the 10 or so hour leg to Auckland

Stepped off the plane in Auckland refreshed and ready to crack on with our holiday.  Both flights were absolutely spot on and added a great deal to our holiday - they were much more than a means of getting from A-B.

The return trip was every bit an enjoyable as the outbound trip.

& here's the kicker.

The Business Class tickets from Stockholm - Auckland on Singapore Airlines that I booked way in advance were the same price that people were paying for Economy seats from Manchester - Auckland  on Singapore Airlines.**

As a direct comparison to Zagfiles trip, in monetary terms, the difference was the cost of the positioning flights. In experience terms, it was the difference between 10/10 and getting from A-B in a modicum of comfort, plus I got a day to enjoy Singapore and I landed in NZ refreshed and ready to start my holiday.

The downside is that you need to allow an extra day before your holiday and an additional flight when you get back to your european airport. But given that this is a retirement thread, the extra time shouldn't be much of an issue.

In terms of money, I've just done a search on a random date for comparable flights

Stockholm - Auckland Singapore Airlines

Business £2145

Prem Economy £1279

Economy £995

The same dates

Manchester - Auckland Singapore Airlines

Business £4751

Prem Economy £3000

Economy £1510

Even with the cost of positioning flights and the "hassle" of flying ex-eu, the savings can be eyewatering.

** in fairness, travelling Economy with Singapore Airlines is a very good experience.  Don't compare it with a low cost carrier or someone like BA/AA.

Travelling Business Class, is very, very nice indeed. !!

michaels

zagfles said:

ratechaser said:

zagfles said:

Jaco70 said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

zagfles said:

ratechaser said:

Zagfles - coming back on your points on travel economies....  So although the MSE in me will be looking for good deals on J class travel (wife isn't going to buy into tricks like ex-EU or convoluted indirect routings so that's out), and nicer hotels, it's likely to net off versus the relatively cheap and cheerful family holidays we have right now. And I haggle hard when booking them, believe me!

Plus the kids have got wise to the fact that mum and dad pay for nice holidays and have suggested they'll be happy to tag along for some years yet 

Yes, I'm with your wife, the travel board is full of people coming up with weird convoluted routes to get cheaper BC flights!

If you are ever able to change your respective minds, flying ex-eu is a wonderful way to ease the pressure on your wallet, whilst
flying on a flatbed, enjoying a good meal - the positioning flight pre and post holiday is all part of the trip !

Sorry to seem dim, but these messages have been a bit lost on me. What’s ‘ex-eu’ and ‘BC flights’? I gather it’s about doing things more cheaply, which is common to us as we regularly travel to Manchester or Gatwick even though we live in Cardiff, but I didn’t understand the abbreviations. 

Sorry we can sometimes forget this isn't the travel board!

BC is business class, generally bigger seats which can convert to a bed, more room, better food and a few other advantages, however usually considerably more expensive than "economy", perhaps £1000+ more each!

Ex-EU means getting a long haul flight originating in an EU country eg France, Germany, which apparently in BC can be considerably cheaper than BC from the UK. Probably due to taxes.

So what some people do is book BC ex-EU but this of course means they need to get to France/Germany first, for which they need a "positioning flight", usually on a different booking/airline, which means the long haul airline wouldn't cover you if your positioning flight were cancelled/delayed. As such contingency is needed, I think most people book the day before, which obviously means they need an overnight stay.

To an extent yes, but really more about marketing. BA for example can't fill its planes just selling to the UK market, so they advertise globally - problem is if you're in The Netherlands (for example), why would you really want an indirect BA flight from Amsterdam to London and then on to <wherever> ,when KLM would fly you directly to <wherever> - leading BA to have to sell it cheaper from that indirect starting point. And you do get some very good sale fares. Crazy that it's cheaper to actually fly more overall, but that's how it works, very consistently. Indirect is cheaper because it's more hassle.

Personally I'd be all for taking that positioning flight and spending a weekend in Amsterdam to start a holiday off. But on the way back you'd have to do the same - your end point wouldn't be London and the airlines take a dim view of people that repeatedly skip the 'last leg' flight because they are obviously gaming the system to get a cheaper flight...

Hence why I don't think I'd ever persuade Mrs RC. Far more of a functional traveller than me.

But presumably the same applies to KLM as BA, ie they charge less for an indirect flight eg LHR-AMS-SIN than just AMS-SIN. I wouldn't be averse to that - as it's on the same booking and therefore your bags will be checked through, and if the LHR-AMS leg is delayed so you miss the long haul flight, the airline will have to reschedule you onto a later flight, providing meals and overnight accomodation if required.

But it seems for some reason a typical BA indirect booking AMS-LHR-SIN is generally cheaper than a KLM booking LHR-AMS-SIN even though both are indirect.

The non-use of the final leg can only work if you have no checked baggage, as your bags will be checked through to the final destination on an indirect flight.

Nope - you just make sure that if the longhaul comes into LHR the shorthaul leaves from LGW or vice-versa as BA expect you to make this trip under your own steam with your bags.

AnotherJoe

shinytop said:

Albermarle said:

On a slightly different tack 'comfortable' could also equate to not having to worry about money in retirement.
By that I mean if you have a pension income of £50K , but only spend £40K , then you do not need to do spreadsheets or detailed expenditure analysis. Also no stress if the investments drop off for a while.
OK I know 'you can't take it with you' 'no pockets in a shroud etc ' but if you built up a big excess you can always give it to charity or family member.

Couldn't have put it better myself and that describes me very well.  I've a lot more important things to do in retirement than budget spreadsheets. 

Ditto. My essential spending will be covered by SP & a similar sized DB, and as I am not inclined to spend up to my theoretical max, my expenditure is well below what I could spend which means I can splurge on a few luxuries without needing to spreadsheet it to death. A lot of these FIRE/ retirement calculations seem to be on the basis that you will want to spend every last penny you can. 

Mt main issue now is, can I give kids the substantial house  deposit and still be in same Comfortable position. 

ratechaser

I'm not going to let this go OT any further than just to add that while I enjoy Singapore Airlines service, I'm not that much of a fan of the couch like J seat, always feel like it's too wide to hug me and too narrow to spread out over.

My favourite was always the Heathrow based Virgin jumbos, sitting up in the nose. Huge space, privacy etc and a seat I've always liked. Won't see those days again sadly as they are now retired...

Anyway... back to pensions... 

fred246

The last time I was upgraded to business class the business class seats were 6 times the cost of economy. While it's a nicer experience I could never plan to waste that much money. I'd rather just give it to my children. The first time I was upgraded the man next to me was the most obnoxious human being you could imagine. I am still disgusted by the way he spoke to the hostess. It was a new experience for me so I think I thought that obnoxious behaviour was normal in business class.

zagfles

Murphy_The_Cat said:

zagfles said:

Murphy_The_Cat said:

zagfles said:

ratechaser said:

Zagfles - coming back on your points on travel economies....  So although the MSE in me will be looking for good deals on J class travel (wife isn't going to buy into tricks like ex-EU or convoluted indirect routings so that's out), and nicer hotels, it's likely to net off versus the relatively cheap and cheerful family holidays we have right now. And I haggle hard when booking them, believe me!

Plus the kids have got wise to the fact that mum and dad pay for nice holidays and have suggested they'll be happy to tag along for some years yet 

Yes, I'm with your wife, the travel board is full of people coming up with weird convoluted routes to get cheaper BC flights!

If you are ever able to change your respective minds, flying ex-eu is a wonderful way to ease the pressure on your wallet, whilst
flying on a flatbed, enjoying a good meal - the positioning flight pre and post holiday is all part of the trip !

Way OT - but for me far too much messing around, positioning flight to somewhere in EU, hanging around airport, collecting bags, going through passport control, finding hotel, one night, getting up and back through it all again, what if positioning flight is cancelled etc..unlikely to be on the same booking...

As an example when we went to NZ, we deliberately booked a 10 hour connection in Singapore and booked the airside transit hotel. Landed there about 9am, about 2am UK time, so didn't need to sleep on the plane. Straight to transit hotel in the airport, no need to collect bags as they were checked through, no immigration, passport control etc, airside all the time. Quiet private room, no windows, so wouldn't know it was daytime. Lovely 8 hours kip, then up for the evening flight to Auckland, which for us was morning as we'd just got up!

So no need to kip on either flight, could make full use of the free booze, inc cocktails, plus SIA's extensive entertainment range inc recently released films.

I've been on loads of long haul economy flights and even for 12 hours or so they're much more enjoyable than typical 3-4 hour budget airline flights which I find a chore. I think a lot of people think if they fly economy they'll get a Ryanair type experience for 4 times as long and shudder thinking about it...really not the case IME, but may depend on airline, I've mostly used flag carriers.

But the big difference is getting a good kip - I'd consider BC if I couldn't spare the time for a long connection, but as we talking retirement here, we'll be time rich so taking an extra 10 hours or so to get there won't be an issue. Also getting to kip in a private hotel room with private facilities rather than what is effectively a "sky dorm" with shared facilities with people snoring around you (I remember my days in hostel dorms!).

IIRC the transit hotel was quite cheap, under £100 for 4 of us, ie £25 each, compare that to the difference between economy and BC!

Sorry for the OT rambling...

I'll give my OT reply, then let the post return to nprmal again.  My most recent trip wasn't disimilar to yours, in the respect that we went to NZ.

Took positioning flight To Stockholm the day before (making sure that there were another 2 flights to Stockholm we could take, if our flight was cancelled).  Spent the night in a nice hotel, that was within the airport.

Up early the next morning to checkin, then spent some time enjoying the complimentary BC longue in Stockholm airport.

Got onto the Singapore Airlines plane and took our seat

Spent the next 14 or so hours being very, very well looked after, eating some fine food, enjoying some fine drinks and taking advantage of the lie flat bed for some kip.

Got to Singapore, took advantage of the City tour for few hours, went to the BC longue to enjoy some complimentary food and drinks, showered and refreshed.

Joined our next plane for the 10 or so hour leg to Auckland

Stepped off the plane in Auckland refreshed and ready to crack on with our holiday.  Both flights were absolutely spot on and added a great deal to our holiday - they were much more than a means of getting from A-B.

The return trip was every bit an enjoyable as the outbound trip.

& here's the kicker.

The Business Class tickets from Stockholm - Auckland on Singapore Airlines that I booked way in advance were the same price that people were paying for Economy seats from Manchester - Auckland  on Singapore Airlines.**

As a direct comparison to Zagfiles trip, in monetary terms, the difference was the cost of the positioning flights. In experience terms, it was the difference between 10/10 and getting from A-B in a modicum of comfort, plus I got a day to enjoy Singapore and I landed in NZ refreshed and ready to start my holiday.

The downside is that you need to allow an extra day before your holiday and an additional flight when you get back to your european airport. But given that this is a retirement thread, the extra time shouldn't be much of an issue.

In terms of money, I've just done a search on a random date for comparable flights

Stockholm - Auckland Singapore Airlines

Business £2145

Prem Economy £1279

Economy £995

The same dates

Manchester - Auckland Singapore Airlines

Business £4751

Prem Economy £3000

Economy £1510

Even with the cost of positioning flights and the "hassle" of flying ex-eu, the savings can be eyewatering.

** in fairness, travelling Economy with Singapore Airlines is a very good experience.  Don't compare it with a low cost carrier or someone like BA/AA.

Travelling Business Class, is very, very nice indeed. !!

If you really want the BC experience then yes, can see it's a good idea. £4751 is a ridiculous price, so saving over £2000 each on something you really want to do is a no-brainer. Not for me - I never slept well in "dorms" so will stick with the private transit hotel room if I can. Of course you could do both - although that'll take even longer to get there!

Although not sure current prices will make much sense as FCO advice is still not to travel anywhere. Sweden never even had a proper lockdown so could be that the Stockholm-Auckland flight goes ahead but you can't get to Stockholm to take it because of UK restrictions! You'd unlikely get a refund in such circumstances.

Or maybe social distancing will mean planes will have to be laid out as full BC!!

Murphy_The_Cat

My final thoughts before I bog off !

Ratechaser, the J class seats on the SIA A380 were even wider - Mrs Cat and I could sit side by side, with seperate headphones to watch a movie, whilst eating icecreams - it was like being at the piccies sharing a "loveseat" !

Fred, I haven't done many J class trips, but the ones that I have taken have all been VERY pleasant.  I've had absolutely no issues with entitled cockwombles. I suspect that on my last trip, the flight attendants enjoyed having a family with them for a change, rather than business people.  AirNZ was different again, with the flight attendants having a relaxed approach.

Zagfiles I used Stockholm as an example (plus its the ex eu airport that I used last year) and the flights I priced up were for December departure. My idea was to show just how much can be saved by flying ex-eu, with a modicum of effort, a soupcon of time and a willingness to try it.  A saving of £600 to travel in economy and fly ex-eu is very substantial (but remember to price in the positioning flight) and for a family of 4, the savings really add up.