Fraudulent claim for self employed

indigoblue11

Does anyone know how to report someone? 

There is a business that is run by self employed people who have been running it on the sly. It’s a gym and a salon. The people that run it have individually received payouts from the government and are continuing to operate. 

whizzywoo

People who are self employed are STILL allowed to trade even though claiming the SEISS grant.
However I am not sure that Hair or Beauty Salons and Gyms are allowed to trade at the moment.  But that is breaking lock down not a fraudulent claim for self employed grants.

Andy_L

whizzywoo said:

People who are self employed are STILL allowed to trade even though claiming the SEISS grant.
However I am not sure that Hair or Beauty Salons and Gyms are allowed to trade at the moment.  But that is breaking lock down not a fraudulent claim for self employed grants.

ISTR that Personal trainers can still operate, providing they're in peoples homes/gardens & keep 2m away

neilmcl

indigoblue11 said:

Does anyone know how to report someone? 

There is a business that is run by self employed people who have been running it on the sly. It’s a gym and a salon. The people that run it have individually received payouts from the government and are continuing to operate. 

This is probably more to do with breaking lockdown rules rather than fraud. If you have evidence that they are operating then the police is probably who you need to speak to 

ProDave

When claiming the SEISS you have to declare that your business has been adversely affected. If it has not, then you would be guilty of fraud.

comeandgo

When you claim you are asked to keep your bank statements, this is to help with verification to help show you had reduced or no income.  HMRC penalties for fraud can be severe.  

Jeremy535897

comeandgo said:

When you claim you are asked to keep your bank statements, this is to help with verification to help show you had reduced or no income.  HMRC penalties for fraud can be severe.  

It is inconceivable that a business operating as a gym and a salon will not have been adversely affected by coronavirus, whether they break lockdown rules or not. They are bound to have fewer customers.
If you run a business you must keep your records for a tax year for at least 5 years and 10 months after the end of that tax year. This includes bank statements (which will be readily available online anyway). There is no new requirement for record retention arising out of coronavirus or SEISS.
It is inconceivable that HMRC will trawl through every SEISS claimant's bank statements to see whether their income has reduced (reduced from what exactly anyway?). This is just alarmist.

comeandgo

Jeremy535897 said:

comeandgo said:

When you claim you are asked to keep your bank statements, this is to help with verification to help show you had reduced or no income.  HMRC penalties for fraud can be severe.  

It is inconceivable that a business operating as a gym and a salon will not have been adversely affected by coronavirus, whether they break lockdown rules or not. They are bound to have fewer customers.
If you run a business you must keep your records for a tax year for at least 5 years and 10 months after the end of that tax year. This includes bank statements (which will be readily available online anyway). There is no new requirement for record retention arising out of coronavirus or SEISS.
It is inconceivable that HMRC will trawl through every SEISS claimant's bank statements to see whether their income has reduced (reduced from what exactly anyway?). This is just alarmist.

I agree everyone is expected to keep records, especially for verification by HMRC but why would you expect them to specifically point out you must keep your bank records if not exactly for verification?  It will be very easy for them to get a team together and go through the self employed companies.

Jeremy535897

comeandgo said:

Jeremy535897 said:

comeandgo said:

When you claim you are asked to keep your bank statements, this is to help with verification to help show you had reduced or no income.  HMRC penalties for fraud can be severe.  

It is inconceivable that a business operating as a gym and a salon will not have been adversely affected by coronavirus, whether they break lockdown rules or not. They are bound to have fewer customers.
If you run a business you must keep your records for a tax year for at least 5 years and 10 months after the end of that tax year. This includes bank statements (which will be readily available online anyway). There is no new requirement for record retention arising out of coronavirus or SEISS.
It is inconceivable that HMRC will trawl through every SEISS claimant's bank statements to see whether their income has reduced (reduced from what exactly anyway?). This is just alarmist.

I agree everyone is expected to keep records, especially for verification by HMRC but why would you expect them to specifically point out you must keep your bank records if not exactly for verification?  It will be very easy for them to get a team together and go through the self employed companies.

What are they going to "verify" though? Many sole traders make accounts up to 31 March, That means 2019/20 will have potentially been affected adversely by coronavirus, as lockdown started before 31 March, and for pubs etc there was that weird period before lockdown where they were allowed to stay open but people were advised not to go in. So it's not just a matter of comparing 2020/21 to 2019/20.

Then there will be people who saw a modest reduction in income due to coronavirus, but whose work picks up and actually gets better from say October. I hardly think the government wants to say to such people that they have to keep their takings below last year, because that will reduce economic activity for no gain whatsoever. The bounce back loan experience has demonstrated that many sole traders use their personal bank account for business purposes, so you can't just look at receipts in a bank account.

I don't know what format their checks will take, but I very much doubt it will be a blunt instrument like you describe. They may look at certain claimants with businesses in sectors that ought to do well out of coronavirus, and seek some supporting evidence to show they were adversely affected. The legislation uses the expression "carry on a trade the business of which has been adversely affected by reason of circumstances arising as a result of coronavirus or coronavirus disease". There is no de minimis. Loss of a £5 sale suffices.