Joint Tenancy at end of fixed term - Not allowed to leave

ConfusedTenant1520

Not sure if this posted or not. I lived in a 3 bedroom flat for 5 years with various flatmates without issue in a join tenancy. About 18 months ago someone moved in and for the last 8 months or so fell out with both myself and the other flatmate to the point I was having panic attacks. The third flatmate kept saying they would move but then changing their mind. For my mental health I decided to go and stay with family further away. Then the lockdown happened. I decided not to renew my contract and gave notice as per my contractual agreement as did the other flatmate. I confirmed I would not end the tenancy early and would wait until the end of the contract. 5 weeks later the agents are telling us we need to all sign an amendment to the contract to confirm that the tenancy goes to the remaining tenant. However if this isn't signed by all parties then the joint tenancy will remain as a rolling periodic contract and then we would need to give notice again (notice period has not been mentioned). This was never communicated to me nor is it in my contract. We have a yearly renewal. I wanted to collect all my belongings as did not expect to be away for this long (I need my clothes! Plus spare inhaler!). However if I am forced to pay until September there is a realistic probability I will need to then have to move back to the area for work. Currently I am a 3 hour drive away. Should I risk my health for my belongings? If the agreement is signed the day before the original end date and I haven't collected my belongings then I am in breach and been told will be liable for rent again. I feel sick. I wanted to help my family who have been financially impacted by Covid 19 instead of paying for somewhere I literally have nightmares about. I am in touch with previous tenants I have lived with in the property and they are in shock at the situation I am in. I feel sick to my stomach.

Slithery

The agent is correct. To end a joint tenancy all parties need to leave otherwise the tenancy continues and you are all still liable for the full rent. Additionally if one of you gives notice to leave and then all parties don't leave the LL is legally allowed to charge you double rent until the property is vacated.

Read...
Ending/renewing an AST

eidand

Look, I am no expert but surely you're capable of doing a simple search on your own.
For example, a simple google search on joint tenancies would show these:
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/private_renting/joint_tenancies
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/private_renting/how_to_end_a_joint_tenancy
I really don't think you can blame your landlord for not educating you on this.

ConfusedTenant1520

I have never been in a situation like this and I searched end of fixed term contracts when looking to end the agreement. I came for advice when asking a range of people including older and younger, landlords and tenants (some renting for over 20 years) none of them were aware of this rule. I'm sorry to have wasted your time I just felt hopeless. I honestly was just trying to do the right thing and now feel utterly drained and out of thousands of pounds. I'll stop wasting everyone's time.

greatcrested

Some more specific details are needed:

ConfusedTenant1520 said:

. I lived in a 3 bedroom flat for 5 years with various flatmates without issue in a join tenancy.

* how many? All one tenancy? Same flatmates or did they change? If changed, how many different tenancies?

* what was the start date of the most recent tenancy, and end date or Term? How many joint tenants?

About 18 months ago someone moved in

So a new joint tenancy 18 months ago? Exact date and Term please?

and for the last 8 months or so fell out with both myself and the other flatmate to the point I was having panic attacks.

So 3 joint tenants, you, A & B

The third flatmate kept saying they would move but then changing their mind. For my mental health I decided to go and stay with family further away. Then the lockdown happened. I decided not to renew my contract

* Is the tenancy in a fixed term, or periodic (rolling)

* if fixed term please confirm exact end date of the tenancy?

and gave notice as per my contractual agreement as did the other flatmate.

* please give precise wording of the 'contractual agreement

* so you and A gave notice? How? What exact date did you serve notice? To expire on what date?

I confirmed I would not end the tenancy early and would wait until the end of the contract.

* dates please

5 weeks later the agents are telling us we need to all sign an amendment to the contract to confirm that the tenancy goes to the remaining tenant. However if this isn't signed by all parties then the joint tenancy will remain as a rolling periodic contract

* possibly correct but we do not have enough information to be able to say

and then we would need to give notice again (notice period has not been mentioned).

* possibly depends on the current tenancy and hoe it may change in future. we do not have enough information to be able to say

This was never communicated to me nor is it in my contract.

* there are various laws which dictate how tenancies can be ended or changed. See link at end

We have a yearly renewal.

* dates

.... if I am forced to pay until September there is a realistic probability I will need to then have to move back to the area for work. Currently I am a 3 hour drive away. Should I risk my health for my belongings?

Entirely up to you. I can only comment on the tenancy, not on your health, clothing, medication etc - sorry.

If the agreement is signed the day before the original end date and I haven't collected my belongings then I am in breach and been told will be liable for rent again. I feel sick.

* Ah! Belongings left in the property could either mean

a) the tenancy continues

b) the tenancy ended but you 'held over' and can be charged double rent or

c) the tenancy ended and the belongs were 'abandoned'. In that case the LL has a duty to look after them for a reasonable period of time, and allow you to collect them. He can charge you a reasonable fee for storage.

If you clarify the tenancy details, your options can be explained.

Post 4: Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

ConfusedTenant1520

Apologies for not being clear will answer now: greatcrested said:

Some more specific details are needed:

ConfusedTenant1520 said:

. I lived in a 3 bedroom flat for 5 years with various flatmates without issue in a join tenancy.

* how many? All one tenancy? Same flatmates or did they change? If changed, how many different tenancies? So all 1 tenancy and the tenancy was originally from 2010 but we were told it had to be renewed ever 12 months on 26th June each year. Never given option for a rolling tenancy. I don't know the total number of tenants from the original. Since I moved in has been a total 6 different tenants including me.

* what was the start date of the most recent tenancy, and end date or Term? How many joint tenants?

About 18 months ago someone moved in - Most recent tenancy was 26th June 2019.

So a new joint tenancy 18 months ago? Exact date and Term please? June 26th 2019 - June 25th 2020 although there was a typo on the contract so says 12 months from June 26 2019 to June 25th 2019.

and for the last 8 months or so fell out with both myself and the other flatmate to the point I was having panic attacks.

So 3 joint tenants, you, A & B - yes

The third flatmate kept saying they would move but then changing their mind. For my mental health I decided to go and stay with family further away. Then the lockdown happened. I decided not to renew my contract

* Is the tenancy in a fixed term, or periodic (rolling)  - Fixed term

* if fixed term please confirm exact end date of the tenancy? - 25th June 2020

and gave notice as per my contractual agreement as did the other flatmate.

* please give precise wording of the 'contractual agreement  - Short hold Tenancy Agreement  "Strictly with the landlord’s or his agents prior written consent and subject to certain conditions that may include the

landlord’s reasonable costs associated with the re-letting of the premises, the tenant might be allowed to surrender or give up this tenancy before it could otherwise lawfully be ended."Mutual Break Clause

This agreement may be terminated by either party giving to the other at least two months notice in

writing at any time after four months from the commencement date of this agreement. For the

avoidance of doubt, the earliest date that notice can be given is 26 October 2019 to expire on 25

December 2019

* so you and A gave notice? How? What exact date did you serve notice? To expire on what date? We served notice on 23rd April and 24th April 2020 respectively formally.

I confirmed I would not end the tenancy early and would wait until the end of the contract.  

* dates please I confirmed verbally to the landlady on March 25th that I would give my 2 months notice. Gave written notice above.

5 weeks later the agents are telling us we need to all sign an amendment to the contract to confirm that the tenancy goes to the remaining tenant. However if this isn't signed by all parties then the joint tenancy will remain as a rolling periodic contract - Got the email today so 19th May 2020

* possibly correct but we do not have enough information to be able to say

and then we would need to give notice again (notice period has not been mentioned).

* possibly depends on the current tenancy and hoe it may change in future. we do not have enough information to be able to say

This was never communicated to me nor is it in my contract.

* there are various laws which dictate how tenancies can be ended or changed. See link at end

We have a yearly renewal.

* dates Renewal 25th April deadline.

.... if I am forced to pay until September there is a realistic probability I will need to then have to move back to the area for work. Currently I am a 3 hour drive away. Should I risk my health for my belongings?

Entirely up to you. I can only comment on the tenancy, not on your health, clothing, medication etc - sorry.

If the agreement is signed the day before the original end date and I haven't collected my belongings then I am in breach and been told will be liable for rent again. I feel sick.

* Ah! Belongings left in the property could either mean

a) the tenancy continues

b) the tenancy ended but you 'held over' and can be charged double rent or

c) the tenancy ended and the belongs were 'abandoned'. In that case the LL has a duty to look after them for a reasonable period of time, and allow you to collect them. He can charge you a reasonable fee for storage.

If you clarify the tenancy details, your options can be explained.

Post 4: Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

Not sure if this would make a difference but we had a faulty fire alarm and reported it 31st Jan 2020 and it still hasn't been replaced.

greatcrested

* fixed term June 26th 2019 - June 25th 2020

* names of tenants on current contract = you, housemate A & new housemate B? Please confirm as you suggest over the years multiple tenants have come/gone without changes to the tenancies.

* The notice clause you quote is a 'Break Clause'. It only applies if you wish to end the tenancy before 25th June. Is this what you wanted when you served notice on 23rd/24th April? You gave "2 months notice" so to expire on 23rd June. What was the point? The fixed term ends 2 days later!

* having said that, to implement that Break Clause, all 3 tenants would need to sign so it is invalid as B did not sign.

* On 25th June either

a) you all leave, tenancy ends, no notice needed

b) LL signs new contract with B & C. Your tenancy ends. Deposit returned. You leave.

c) Deed of Assignment Executed. Current tenancy becomes periodic with your name replaced with B's name (or A & B or B + someone new)

d) none of the above. Current tenancy becomes periodic and you, A & B remain the tenants

* re belongings. As before, if a) b) or c) above but you don't fully vacate belongings, then

a) the current tenancy could continue (as d above), or

b) the tenancy ended but you 'held over' and can be charged double rent or

c) the tenancy ended and the belongs were 'abandoned'. In that case the LL has a duty to look after them for a reasonable period of time, and allow you to collect them. He can charge you a reasonable fee for storage.

But you have 5 weeks -surely you can either collect your belongings in that time, or arrange someone else to, or even pay the agent to pack them up for you?

ConfusedTenant1520

greatcrested said:

* fixed term June 26th 2019 - June 25th 2020

* names of tenants on current contract = you, housemate A & new housemate B? Please confirm as you suggest over the years multiple tenants have come/gone without changes to the tenancies. Yes, on tenancy me, A+B

* The notice clause you quote is a 'Break Clause'. It only applies if you wish to end the tenancy before 25th June. Is this what you wanted when you served notice on 23rd/24th April? You gave "2 months notice" so to expire on 23rd June. What was the point? The fixed term ends 2 days later! I told landlord month before but gave notice on 23rd stating date of end as 25th June 2020 to be polite. I thought this was standard that you give notice that you do not want to renew the contract. The agents led me to believe this to be the case each year and as there was nothing specific in the contract stating I thought best to confirm in writing.

* having said that, to implement that Break Clause, all 3 tenants would need to sign so it is invalid as B did not sign.

* On 25th June either

a) you all leave, tenancy ends, no notice needed

b) LL signs new contract with B & C. Your tenancy ends. Deposit returned. You leave.

c) Deed of Assignment Executed. Current tenancy becomes periodic with your name replaced with B's name (or A & B or B + someone new)

d) none of the above. Current tenancy becomes periodic and you, A & B remain the tenants

* re belongings. As before, if a) b) or c) above but you don't fully vacate belongings, then

a) the current tenancy could continue (as d above), or

b) the tenancy ended but you 'held over' and can be charged double rent or

c) the tenancy ended and the belongs were 'abandoned'. In that case the LL has a duty to look after them for a reasonable period of time, and allow you to collect them. He can charge you a reasonable fee for storage.

But you have 5 weeks -surely you can either collect your belongings in that time, or arrange someone else to, or even pay the agent to pack them up for you?

I will go get my belongings. I think the issue was if my tenancy was forced to become periodic it would make sense to keep my belongings there as if restrictions lift most likely I will need to return to the office so driving 6 hours round trip would not make sense - this is my personal issue. I wonder if there is anyway I can no in advance what the outcome will be. This all depends on if B signs the new amendment they have provided. B is ignoring all correspondence. 

Could it be possible if I am considering holding over if all my possessions have been removed - have indicated I no longer want to live in the property/return keys etc, but Tenant B remains without signing anything?

Thank you so much for your advice!

missile

Remove your belongings. Your tenancy ends on …. If you later decide to return look for another property.

[Deleted User]

@ConfusedTenant1520 If I’m reading your responses correctly only A and B are joint tenants.  C is not party to your joint tenancy. I presume that C pays rent to your landlord and not to either A or B which would make C a tenant rather than a lodger of A and B. I wonder what C has a tenancy for since presumably A and B have a joint tenancy for exclusive occupation of the whole property.  The whole thing sounds like a total mess. What does B want to do as I assume you are A in this situation? 

ConfusedTenant1520

Lover_of_Lycra said:

@ConfusedTenant1520 If I’m reading your responses correctly only A and B are joint tenants.  C is not party to your joint tenancy. I presume that C pays rent to your landlord and not to either A or B which would make C a tenant rather than a lodger of A and B. I wonder what C has a tenancy for since presumably A and B have a joint tenancy for exclusive occupation of the whole property.  The whole thing sounds like a total mess. What does B want to do as I assume you are A in this situation? 

Apologies for the confusion. There are 3 of us in the tenancy agreement. So from the wording above I am neither A or B so I guess I am C?

We all pay rent directly to the estate agents. So myself (C) and A want to leave. B wants to stay. But B also doesn't want to be responsible for all the rent. B initially agreed to be the only one in the agreement but has not signed anything and does not look to be doing so. It is a big mess. I think my LL has said they they will allow B to pay only their 3rd of the rent for us to leave the tenancy due to Covid 19 but B will be liable for all the bills. If no one signs anything A and C will have to pay the rent and bills for the period tenancy which is what the agents have told me. It looks like A and myself (C) will be have no way out of this without paying at least an extra month more than what we budgeted for. I'm not sure if an email is a sufficient written notice to end a period tenancy. I don't think my estate agents is open at the moment and my LL is abroad.