No deeds for house we are trying to buy

GDB2222

I suppose the question posed by Vitaweat is the most crucial, namely how much of a discount do you want? It was wrong of the sellers to market the property without getting title sorted out first, or at least getting started on the process. So, what else are they hiding?  If it’s a probate sale, do they actually have probate yet?  Neighbour disputes or subsidence  that they have conveniently forgotten about?

This is all going to be a gigantic PITA for the buyer, and if I were the buyer this would have to be a very special property or I’d look elsewhere. I certainly would not waste money on a survey yet.

vitaweat

martindow said:

vitaweat said:

greatcrested said:

vitaweat said:

To be clear, there are two different things:
1. Holding the deeds to a property
2. The property being registered with the Land Registry

#1 is effectively a souvenir these days, #2 shows ownership.

If the property is registered then ownership can be transferred.  This blog piece goes into a little more detail:

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/19/title-deeds/

OP said quite clearly that "The house is unregistered as it was built in the early 50s and the couple lived there their whole lives."

You can still buy the property but it will cost a little more and be a PITA as the Land Registry will want to know why the place is unregistered and why there are no deeds.

LR won't care why it's unregistered. Thousands of properties are unregistered. They also won't care why there are no deeds - they'll simply deal with the 1st registration application according to their process for unregistered propertes with missing deeds!

As for your quesions OP:
Is it poor that our solicitors were not aware of the missing deeds? No. They had no way of knowing till they started to investigate the title. That's their job and that's why you are paying them.

But it is poor that the seller did not tell the estate agent so that the EA could have highlighted this to you up-front.
can we still buy the house? Yes - but there are risks. 1) The seller might not own the house. At some point in the future, someone might appear with deeds proving that they own! Unlikely, but possible. You can get insurance against this, but that will cover your costs/losses - it won't help you keep the house. 2) you might find there are covenants on the property eg prohibitting you from extending, or selling alcohol (yes - I'm not allowed to from my house!), or making you pay to upkeep the village green.Since you have no deeds or documents, you have no way of knowing. Again, insurance can protect against the costs, but the covenants can still be enforced (by whoever..)

whats the process now?  Follow your solicitor's advice, but if it were me a) insist the seller registers the property before you Exchange and b) take a view about the risks,against  how much you want the property
how long should we expect the process to take?  Piece of string.

Should we hold off on our survey and any further searches? My advice again - yes.

The LR doesn't agree with you.

Can you send us a link to where the LR says that?

Sorry to hear your Google is broken.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed/practice-guide-2-first-registration-of-title-if-deeds-are-lost-or-destroyed#making-an-application

Newhouse87

Thanks all. 

The person who lives there has it in probate from her husband but we are awaiting for that to be certified. I think you have all reassured me that this should have been sorted way before they decided to market the property and I’m really disappointed with the sellers solicitors. The seller is also under pressure move into their new retirement home making things worse! 

We will speak with our solicitors tomorrow but I really appreciate your help. It is our perfect/dream house so we don’t want to have to pull out unless we really have to!

AdrianC

Newhouse87 said:

I think you have all reassured me that this should have been sorted way before they decided to market the property and I’m really disappointed with the sellers solicitors.

There's nothing to say it HAS to be registered or sorted prior to sale. It needs to be done on change of ownership, but the buyer's solicitor can do it.

Or you could say "I'm not buying it until it's been done" - in which case, the sale can either be held up until it's done, or they could say "OK, fine", walk away, and look for a buyer who's less prescriptive.

greatcrested

vitaweat said:

greatcrested said:

vitaweat said:

To be clear, there are two different things:
1. Holding the deeds to a property
2. The property being registered with the Land Registry

#1 is effectively a souvenir these days, #2 shows ownership.

If the property is registered then ownership can be transferred.  This blog piece goes into a little more detail:

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/19/title-deeds/

OP said quite clearly that "The house is unregistered as it was built in the early 50s and the couple lived there their whole lives."

You can still buy the property but it will cost a little more and be a PITA as the Land Registry will want to know why the place is unregistered and why there are no deeds.

LR won't care why it's unregistered. Thousands of properties are unregistered. They also won't care why there are no deeds - they'll simply deal with the 1st registration application according to their process for unregistered propertes with missing deeds!

As for your quesions OP:
Is it poor that our solicitors were not aware of the missing deeds? No. They had no way of knowing till they started to investigate the title. That's their job and that's why you are paying them.

But it is poor that the seller did not tell the estate agent so that the EA could have highlighted this to you up-front.
can we still buy the house? Yes - but there are risks. 1) The seller might not own the house. At some point in the future, someone might appear with deeds proving that they own! Unlikely, but possible. You can get insurance against this, but that will cover your costs/losses - it won't help you keep the house. 2) you might find there are covenants on the property eg prohibitting you from extending, or selling alcohol (yes - I'm not allowed to from my house!), or making you pay to upkeep the village green.Since you have no deeds or documents, you have no way of knowing. Again, insurance can protect against the costs, but the covenants can still be enforced (by whoever..)

whats the process now?  Follow your solicitor's advice, but if it were me a) insist the seller registers the property before you Exchange and b) take a view about the risks,against  how much you want the property
how long should we expect the process to take?  Piece of string.

Should we hold off on our survey and any further searches? My advice again - yes.

The LR doesn't agree with you.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed/practice-guide-2-first-registration-of-title-if-deeds-are-lost-or-destroyed#making-an-application

Thanks for providing the OP the helpful link - though I'm sure he's have appreciated it earlier!

Confirms what I said

they'll simply deal with the 1st registration application according to their process for unregistered propertes with missing deeds!

vitaweat

greatcrested said:

vitaweat said:

greatcrested said:

vitaweat said:

To be clear, there are two different things:
1. Holding the deeds to a property
2. The property being registered with the Land Registry

#1 is effectively a souvenir these days, #2 shows ownership.

If the property is registered then ownership can be transferred.  This blog piece goes into a little more detail:

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/19/title-deeds/

OP said quite clearly that "The house is unregistered as it was built in the early 50s and the couple lived there their whole lives."

You can still buy the property but it will cost a little more and be a PITA as the Land Registry will want to know why the place is unregistered and why there are no deeds.

LR won't care why it's unregistered. Thousands of properties are unregistered. They also won't care why there are no deeds - they'll simply deal with the 1st registration application according to their process for unregistered propertes with missing deeds!

As for your quesions OP:
Is it poor that our solicitors were not aware of the missing deeds? No. They had no way of knowing till they started to investigate the title. That's their job and that's why you are paying them.

But it is poor that the seller did not tell the estate agent so that the EA could have highlighted this to you up-front.
can we still buy the house? Yes - but there are risks. 1) The seller might not own the house. At some point in the future, someone might appear with deeds proving that they own! Unlikely, but possible. You can get insurance against this, but that will cover your costs/losses - it won't help you keep the house. 2) you might find there are covenants on the property eg prohibitting you from extending, or selling alcohol (yes - I'm not allowed to from my house!), or making you pay to upkeep the village green.Since you have no deeds or documents, you have no way of knowing. Again, insurance can protect against the costs, but the covenants can still be enforced (by whoever..)

whats the process now?  Follow your solicitor's advice, but if it were me a) insist the seller registers the property before you Exchange and b) take a view about the risks,against  how much you want the property
how long should we expect the process to take?  Piece of string.

Should we hold off on our survey and any further searches? My advice again - yes.

The LR doesn't agree with you.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed/practice-guide-2-first-registration-of-title-if-deeds-are-lost-or-destroyed#making-an-application

Thanks for providing the OP the helpful link - though I'm sure he's have appreciated it earlier!

Confirms what I said

they'll simply deal with the 1st registration application according to their process for unregistered propertes with missing deeds!

No it doesn't, it confirms what I said:

"In place of lodging the normal documentary title you will need to:

• provide an account of the events that have led to the loss or destruction"

Of course you could have provided it too but you're too busy taking cheap shots at posters that are actually trying to help.

Newhouse87

@AdrianC yes I think that’s what we will do - we won’t but it until it’s done and then what will be will be! Thank you 

AdrianC

Newhouse87 said:

@AdrianC yes I think that’s what we will do - we won’t but it until it’s done and then what will be will be! Thank you 

It won't make any difference to the eventual strength of title you get to the property, of course...

GDB2222

AdrianC said:

Newhouse87 said:

@AdrianC yes I think that’s what we will do - we won’t but it until it’s done and then what will be will be! Thank you 

It won't make any difference to the eventual strength of title you get to the property, of course...

I think there are two issues:
1. There's no guarantee that there's enough evidence to satisfy the Land Registry, and they may simply refuse to register the title. I assume that, in such circumstances, the property is unsaleable (and consequently unmortgageable). 
 2. The OP will need insurance against losing the ownership. The cost of that insurance will depend on the evidence available.

There's no question that the seller is best placed to unearth any evidence there is. At the moment, it's the seller's problem to do this. If they can't find enough evidence to satisfy the LR, why would anyone give them any money for it? Indeed, how would they pass ownership over? 

Newhouse87

Thanks all. We spoke to our solicitors today and we have given the sellers the deadline of the end of the week to decide what they want to do - either they have the deeds and they register it or they don’t and they need to apply for first registration. If they haven’t sorted out their act by the end of the week we will most probably walk away which will be really sad but it’s been almost 3 months now. So we will see what happens by the end of the week! I mean I know they said buying a house was stressful but this feels more stressful that normal haha! Thanks all.