Reasonable costs for serving a Section 8 & 21?

Dumblebore

Got into a spot of bother earlier this year and got a section 8 and 21 just before lockdown, 3 months late on rent in the end.
Managed to get some work and pay off all arrears/get it up to date, getting ready to move out end of month in line with original section 21 (periodic tenancy) they served. 
However, just got another section 21 in the mail for 3 months from now, plus a legal fee of £4k+ from their solicitors (!?) which they state is reasonable costs for 1 x section 8 and 2 x section 21.
They said they've already deducted this from my deposit the landlord is holding and I need to pay the landlord that amount to make them whole.
I'm quite confused and my Google Fu has failed to find what counts as "reasonable costs" incurred in remedying breaches or enforcing obligations in my tenancy agreement. 
Now I don't mind paying a bit as late rent was my fault, but are there any standards on this/guidelines?
Cheers all.

princeofpounds

50p for a stamp?! 

Seriously they are trying it on. The paperwork to terminate a tenancy is part of the standard course of business for a landlord. Even if an eviction went to court it is highly unlikely any kind of costs order would be made. And for £4K? ho ho ho... wind-up.

i would either send a reply saying ‘thanks for your letter, your inflated invoice is the responsibility of your client as you well know’, or just ignore it.

I’m wondering whether a complaint to the SRA is possible for such ‘speculative invoicing’,  I suspect not worth the time.

Also challenge any deduction to your deposit, if and when it happens. I assume it is properly protected in a scheme? 

The problem you have however  is that the landlord has been upset by your non-payment (and their own ineptitude which has forced them to apparently pay a solicitor) and is clearly seeking to terminate the tenancy via the S21 route rather than S8 (which would have relied on your non-payment but could apply earlier). 

If so, there will come a point where you will have to leave, but ultimately that’s only when either you end the tenancy (properly - by giving notice or accepting the LL’s notice or leaving at the end of a fixed term) and leave voluntarily, or a court orders it.

But no repossessions are being granted under Covid so relax for now, give us more info and we can be more specific on the best way forward.

What dates were on the two notices? When were they served? What grounds did they cite?

[Deleted User]

Dumblebore said:

Got into a spot of bother earlier this year and got a section 8 and 21 just before lockdown, 3 months late on rent in the end.
Managed to get some work and pay off all arrears/get it up to date, getting ready to move out end of month in line with original section 21 (periodic tenancy) they served. 
However, just got another section 21 in the mail for 3 months from now, plus a legal fee of £4k+ from their solicitors (!?) which they state is reasonable costs for 1 x section 8 and 2 x section 21.
They said they've already deducted this from my deposit the landlord is holding and I need to pay the landlord that amount to make them whole.
I'm quite confused and my Google Fu has failed to find what counts as "reasonable costs" incurred in remedying breaches or enforcing obligations in my tenancy agreement. 
Now I don't mind paying a bit as late rent was my fault, but are there any standards on this/guidelines?
Cheers all.

If your landlord doesn’t feel able enough to issue Section 21 and Section 8 notices so pays £4k to a solicitor to do it for them, that’s on your landlord not you. 

If this had gone to court and you lost then you might have had to pay the court costs but not your landlord’s legal costs. The whole system is designed so that a landlord shouldn’t have to use a solicitor to get a possession order or to enforce it. 

Comms69

HAhahaha reply with: Arkell v Presdram ( and they’re a bit late for April fools)

not a chance you owe this.

AdrianC

Dumblebore said:

However, just got another section 21 in the mail for 3 months from now

That suggests they know that the original was unenforceable.

plus a legal fee of £4k+ from their solicitors (!?) which they state is reasonable costs for 1 x section 8 and 2 x section 21.

I can well believe a very expensive legal firm could well bill that much... But that's their choice. There is no inherent cost in issuing notice.

 But the s21 notice costs shouldn't be being passed on. It's "no fault" notice. They've decided to issue it. s8? Perhaps, but you paid up in time, and that is also unenforceable now. There are no other legal costs, because there's no way for them to seek possession currently.

They said they've already deducted this from my deposit the landlord is holding

That's not up to them. It's up to the deposit protection arbitrators AFTER you move out, once you reclaim the deposit.

Let them convince the arbitrators it's justified.
Let them convince a small claim court that it's justified.
(They won't)

But is your deposit really more than the £4k...? How much is the rent?

Dumblebore

Cheers everyone, it is quite bizarre.

The original s21 is to leave end of May, happy to do that. Have paid up to end of May anyway to get ahead.

New one is end of August, also happy to do that.

As I was late I feel morally I should pay for reasonable costs to send a section 8 (served under causes 8, 10 and 11) and perhaps original section 21?

Second section 21 seems excessive.

I'm trying to figure out what is "reasonable" to offer, saw this saying £250 + VAT for each doc on Stephensons solicitors website.

Neither section 21 is valid as the deposit isn't protected right now and they didn't serve a how to rent guide at the start of the tenancy. Section 8 shouldn't be valid as rent up to date on cause 8, doubt they'll do 10 and 11 as I'll be leaving soon before that process finishes anyway.

I know I can claim a statutory penalty on the deposit (did remind LL to protect it) but just trying to be fair as it was my fault rent was late. Even if the deposit was protected, wouldn't it be illegal for them to have taken money from it to pay the solicitors before I move out? No idea on the penalty for that.

Marvel1

Dumblebore said:

]As I was late I feel morally I should pay for reasonable costs to send a section 8 (served under causes 8, 10 and 11) and perhaps original section 21?

I'm trying to figure out what is "reasonable" to offer, saw this saying £250 + VAT for each doc on Stephensons solicitors website.

No

£0 is the offer

It's part of the business and risks.

Comms69

Dumblebore said:

Cheers everyone, it is quite bizarre.

The original s21 is to leave end of May, happy to do that. Have paid up to end of May anyway to get ahead.

New one is end of August, also happy to do that.

As I was late I feel morally I should pay for reasonable costs to send a section 8 (served under causes 8, 10 and 11) and perhaps original section 21?

Second section 21 seems excessive.

I'm trying to figure out what is "reasonable" to offer, saw this saying £250 + VAT for each doc on Stephensons solicitors website.

Neither section 21 is valid as the deposit isn't protected right now and they didn't serve a how to rent guide at the start of the tenancy. Section 8 shouldn't be valid as rent up to date on cause 8, doubt they'll do 10 and 11 as I'll be leaving soon before that process finishes anyway.

I know I can claim a statutory penalty on the deposit (did remind LL to protect it) but just trying to be fair as it was my fault rent was late. Even if the deposit was protected, wouldn't it be illegal for them to have taken money from it to pay the solicitors before I move out? No idea on the penalty for that.

Firstly a s.21 doesnt require you to leave. at all.

secondly the cost is £2 - paper, ink, postage. That's it.

Th deposit isnt protected? Great, sue them. 

princeofpounds

Dumblebore said:

I'm trying to figure out what is "reasonable" to offer, saw this saying £250 + VAT for each doc on Stephensons solicitors website.

Don't be a fool. 

You have completely fulfilled your contractual obligation. Just a bit late, but it's sorted now.

If you really are wracked with guilt about being late with the rent, offer the landlord the interest on the late rent. That would be what, about 0.1%?! Or about £1.5 for £1500 of rent... give me a break.

Then to be entirely fair you can go and get the up to 3x penalty for non-protection of the deposit. And not leave, because they have not served a single valid notice (makes you wonder what these lawyers were doing for them!). The second S21 was probably only served because they realised the first one was invalid for some reason, but it's still not valid. 

You know they are probably going to scam you for your deposit right, and you've got a court trip ahead of you if they don't settle up first?

I repeat, with emphasis - don't be a naive fool.

ciderboy2009

Dumblebore said:

I'm trying to figure out what is "reasonable" to offer, saw this saying £250 + VAT for each doc on Stephensons solicitors website.

That's very nice of you but they aren't being reasonable in trying to get £4k out of you.

I would email them back pointing out that you won't be paying any of their invoices for issuing invalid documents.

I would also ask them to get their client to confirm that they will be returning the deposit to you in full immediately, failing which you will have no choice but to issue a claim in the County Court for them failing to protect it.

AdrianC

Dumblebore said:

Even if the deposit was protected, wouldn't it be illegal for them to have taken money from it to pay the solicitors before I move out?

They can't take money from a protected deposit - it's not held by them*.
They can threaten to take money from it... by not repaying it to you. But they don't get that final decision - the arbitrators do.

* - OK, it can be, if it's in an insured scheme, but the end effect is the same, and they would have to pay it to the protection scheme in the event of a dispute. Any debt by their failure would be between them and the scheme, not the scheme and you.
https://www.gov.uk/deposit-protection-schemes-and-landlords

If it isn't protected, then there's no argument - you take them to court for the amount. In a case like this, with them attempting to extract this much michael, it would be worth aiming for the penalty 3x.