PCN Panic - Should I give in and pay?

KTC44

Good morning all,

Hope everyone is staying safe and healthy during this lockdown!

I have read through multiple threads and the pinned advice sections prior to posting this and was unable to understand some of it. I will apologise in advance that I am likely repeating a question answered previously.

18/04/2019 – Letter received in post (letter dated 15/04/2019) from Total Parking Solutions informing me a Parking Charge Notice had been issued for breaking parking T&Cs in a privately operated parking area in London. They state that the event was detected by ANPR cameras. It requested that I pay £100 fine or, if paying within 14 days of the notice, a reduced fee of £60 could be paid.

The car has been parked within that car park (at a gym) on regular occasions and I had never received a fine, nor had there been any visible signs. I went to the car park upon receipt of the letter and did not see any signs. I spoke to the manager of the gym who said that fines have been issued to people before and that they’re unable to get involved in any disputes. Naturally, since then I have ensured the car is not parked there and I have noticed that there have since been signs erected. The appeals process on the letter outlined a web address that I could visit and so I did, completing the appeal and stating I would like evidence of there being signage in the car park. I did not receive an answer to this.

I called the number given on the letter and the advisor I spoke to simply stated that appeals could only be dealt with online. I left the matter, settled in the knowledge I had followed up accordingly and dubious about the legality of their claim given what I have read regarding Parking charge vs Penalty charge notices.

I did not hear anything further on the matter until October 2019.

20/10/2019 – Letter received in post from BW Legal informing me the matter had been escalated to themselves to take action, recover funds and if necessary, proceed with court actions against me. I unfortunately have not been able to find the exact letter to give more details but the letter contained an appeals procedure which I followed.

20/10/2019 - I emailed them my appeal and I received an auto email back confirming receipt and stating the following;

“Before we are able to reply we need you to confirm a few Data Protection Questions which we have specified below.

If your email does not contain the below information, we kindly request you resend your email with the required information to enable us to deal with your query effectively. Please note that you are required to provide the details marked in bold together with one of the other areas as a minimum. This helps us ensure we are communicating with the correct person. Please note we may be unable to respond if you do not provide the required information.

• BW Legal Reference:
• Full Name:
• First Line of Address:
• Postcode:
• Telephone Contact Number:
• Vehicle Registration:
• Vehicle Make or Model:
• Parking Charge Number:
• Street Name or Car Park:
• Authorised Email address:

Confirmation you wish for us to correspond with you via this email address (Yes/No):”

20/10/2019 - I replied via email asking why they needed quite so much from me as I didn’t want to provide details such as my telephone number (I felt it was one more way for them to harass me) and they responded with “Under the Data Protection Act 2018 we are unable to discuss any information pertaining to the reference quoted without first completing Data Protection verification. This is to ensure the safety and security of your data, and for us to confirm that we are speaking to the correct person.

We would therefore appreciate it if you could confirm our Data Protection questions, or contact our offices on the below number, or register and log on to our online portal at www.bwlegal.co.uk where you can find further details in respect of the above matter.”

As I wanted the matter resolved and against my better judgement, I provided them with my address and email address plus the Parking charge number figuring they already had this information so I wasn’t giving anything additional.

12/11/2020 – Email received from BW Legal 

“As this contravention was registered using Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras, no Parking Charge Notice (PCN) would have been affixed to your vehicle windscreen. Our Client has issued all correspondence regarding this contravention to the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle - information which is provided to them by the Driver and Vehicle License Agency (DVLA). It is your responsibility to ensure that your details with the DVLA are kept up to date, allowing important correspondence to be able to reach you.

As a result of the breach, our Client is well within their contractual rights to issue the PCN and take all necessary steps (including bringing legal proceedings) to recover the outstanding charge. Please note that our Client will not accept a settlement for this Account, therefore the outstanding balance remains due and owing.

We trust this now concludes any outstanding queries you had raised with ourselves. It is important that you now contact us in order to discuss an affordable payment arrangement. Should you not wish to arrange and affordable repayment plan for this outstanding balance, we strongly recommend that you seek your own independent legal advice.”

At this point, they wanted me to pay £154 which included their legal fees. I spent time reading similar cases on the internet, including many on this forum, and decided to ignore the emails as I was still dubious about their rights to claim this money from me, especially as they had not provided the information I requested to prove their claim. In hindsight, this may not have been the most sensible thing to do but I did not want to part with a sum of money I could not really afford to pay without full knowledge it was legal.

I did not hear from them for many months and thought they had decided to leave the matter.

23/04/2020 – Email received detailing a discounted payment offer. “We have discussed with our client about how they can help with any possible financial burden that you may have and we are able to now offer you a pre-approved discount. This can be paid in one lump sum, or you can pay this over a pre-agreed instalment plan. This offer is open until 30 May 2020.”… “Strictly without prejudice, the discount available is 20% from your current balance. If you do take advantage of the offer, the revised amount to pay will be £123.20 if paid by the 30 May 2020.”

04/05/2020 – Letter received in post (dated 28/04/2020) from BW Legal stating the same as the emails.

05/05/2020 – Email received reminding me of the above offer and it’s expiry date of 30 May 2020.

Ultimately, I am unsure what to do as a next step. The current global climate has affected me financially and I am not in a position to just pay this to get them off my back, though if that is what is ultimately necessary to prevent further charges/court proceedings, I will have to find a way of paying. I am though reluctant to pay when I am not convinced both from what I have read in this forum and the way they have not provided evidence of signage being in place at the time of the alleged contravention, that I do indeed owe anything to them. The situation is causing me significant stress – this kind of situation is not something I am used to dealing with!

Therefore, I am reaching out to you, the experts on this sort of thing, for advice on what my next steps should be please. I’ll apologise again for posting a query that is likely covering topics already answered – I did try to understand the other threads but failed rather badly!

A sincere thank you in advance for your help with this - I am immensely grateful!

Umkomaas

Date of your parking event?

Did the first letter from TPS conform with the requirements of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) to hold the keeper liable? 

In your appeal to TPS did you identify who the driver was?

Nothing you can do now but await either a formal Letter of Claim and/or a county court claim via the Northampton CCBC. Do not ignore, come back on this thread if you receive either. 

Please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, second post, which will prepare you for any court proceedings - be informed, be aware, be ready to be able to deal with it if it proceeds to litigation. 

KTC44

Hi @Umkomaas,

Thank you very much for your speedy reply. Please see answers below;

"Date of your parking event?": 06/04/2019

"Did the first letter from TPS conform with the requirements of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) to hold the keeper liable?" It states that it does on the letter.

"In your appeal to TPS did you identify who the driver was?" No, I identified myself as the registered keeper but not the driver.

"Nothing you can do now but await either a formal Letter of Claim and/or a county court claim via the Northampton CCBC. Do not ignore, come back on this thread if you receive either." Thanks for this - so you would suggest awaiting this letter, not paying the sum to make it go away? I am fearful that the potential charge would increase significantly!

"Please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, second post, which will prepare you for any court proceedings - be informed, be aware, be ready to be able to deal with it if it proceeds to litigation." Thanks - I shall get reading!

Coupon-mad

so you would suggest awaiting this letter, not paying the sum to make it go away? I am fearful that the potential charge would increase significantly!

Nope, it's less in play at court stage, and a fun (IMHO) game to be had, with our help.  If the PCN was £100 then they cannot add £60 but they do.  This is unrecoverable in court and if there were no signs up at the material time then that will form part of your defence.

We have a template defence now that takes people no more than half an hour to edit!

We see 99% wins here, and lots of cases are discontinued pre-hearing.  Even the odd person who loses gets no CCJ becasue they finally just pay the sum the court orders within 30 days, and that woudl be £100 plus £50 court fees plus (possibly) £50 legal fees (and maybe tuppence ha'penny in interest as well).  But almost everyone wins.

If you've thrown away the letters, send Tito who runs TPS, a SAR, that sometimes causes him to give up when he realises they have no evidence!  SAR is explained with an example in the NEWBIES thread, and is sent by email, and is free.
  

Umkomaas

Thanks for this - so you would suggest awaiting this letter, not paying the sum to make it go away? I am fearful that the potential charge would increase significantly!

Likely court costs to you of a loss (for a claim under £300):

£100 original parking charge
£25 filing fee (which the claimant pays to make the claim)
£50 (capped max) claimant's Legal fees
£25 hearing fee (but we very rarely see that claimed)
That's about it - £200 tops. 

If you win, you can claim:

£95 towards half a day's loss of earnings/annual leave (take pay slips to prove pay rate)
Public Transport or mileage @ 45ppm
Parking costs (pre-assess at £5, adjust on the day). 

"Did the first letter from TPS conform with the requirements of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) to hold the keeper liable?" It states that it does on the letter.

I'd be very circumspect about taking anything at face value that a PPC tells you without checking it out. Have you checked it with PoFA? Scan and upload a copy (front and back) of the NtK for us to view. 

D_P_Dance

At this point, they wanted me to pay £154 which included their legal fees. 

Unless a judge says otherwise they must cover their own legal fees.  Read this

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6014081/abuse-of-process-district-judge-tells-bwlegal

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully, when life gets back to normal, it will become impossible for those scammers who are left to continue their vile trade, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Fruitcake

It is not a fine.
Presumably you cancelled the gym membership and told the manager that it was too expensive if you were going to get a £100 scamvoice every timer the driver visited.

Have you complained to your MP yet about this unregulated scam?

Have a look at google street view images and use the slider to go back in time to see if any images show the car park entrance and the presence of any signs.
Please tell us the location as someone might know it and have contemporary information.

KTC44

Hi all, 
Thank you very much for your responses and apologies for the delayed reply providing the letter requested by @Umkomaas
- I needed photocopier access! Images of the letter now attached for your reference.
I will look to send the SAR email @Coupon-mad, thanks for this.
@D_P_Dance, I will also get something sent over to my MP, thank you.
@Fruitcake, the gym membership isn't cancelled but if a car is needed to get there, it's left on the street outside rather than in the car park! The gym does now display signs internally warning members they could risk a fine if they park in the car park - that is a new thing so I assume multiple people have been affected by this! The location of the parking area is 'SE16 4DG, The Biscuit Factory' which is in Bermondsey, London. 

Thanks again all. 

KeithP

You obliterated the PCN number from one image, but it shows clearly on the image of the back of that notice.

Umkomaas

The NtK is not compliant with PoFA for them to hold the keeper liable. It does not state under which specific paragraph of PoFA they are pursuing the keeper. Please look specifically at para 9 (which is the relevant para for ANPR capture) to understand/spot their failing. 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

It won't stop them pursuing you, and should it come to a court case against you, you will need to understand the nuance and be able to articulate this part of the Act to a Judge, who may not be wised up on it - or may even deem it to be trivial, but the law is with you. 

I'll remind you of what I said to you in my post from the other day. 

I'd be very circumspect about taking anything at face value that a PPC tells you without checking it out. 

QED!

KTC44

KeithP said:

You obliterated the PCN number from one image, but it shows clearly on the image of the back of that notice.

Thank you for noticing this - removed!