Putting charge on a property not listed on land registry

Happytosave

A group of us got swindled out of some money (as individuals) from a dodgy businessman. We successfully, individually got county court judgements against him but bailiffs could not lawfully gain access to his house. Trading standards are building a case against him too. Without wanting to throw too much good money after bad, is it possible to put a charge on his house? One of our group did a search and his house does not appear on the land registry. We think he must own it outright and did so before it was a legal requirement to register properties. It is just a regular 1950/60s semi. 

greatcrested

Not sure why bailiffs could not gain entry. Were these commercial bailiffs or county court bailiffs?

You can apply to have a charge registered against the property. This would trigger a compulsory 1st registration.

I'm not sure how that works as the 1st registration would presumably have to be done by the owner.

You could escalate the claim to the High Court - HC Bailiffs could then enter.

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/enforce-a-judgment

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part70/pd_part70

Happytosave

We did use HC bailiffs but they can only gain forcible entry for only a couple of reasons e.g. High court fines.  Also looking at the first link you kindly posted, we do not have evidence he owns the property but having spoken to locals, he has been there for decades and it is not under any other name on the land registry so presumably not rented. Also the bailiffs spoke to neighbours who did not mention a landlord. So my question is, can we still apply to have charge registered? 

greatcrested

Happytosave said:

.... it is not under any other name on the land registry so presumably not rented. Also the bailiffs spoke to neighbours who did not mention a landlord. ...

?? suggests you found it registered at the LR. But "not under any other name" so... under his name? I don't understand. Is it registered or not?

princeofpounds

I'm surprised the HCEOs didn't have more success, have you thought about sending them back again?

You can get a charging order, but you will need to evidence that he owns the property, and that's obviously hard without registration.

Some other ideas for you - have you thought about trying for an order to obtain information? He is then supposed to disclose under oath all sorts of things. 

Do you know any of his personal bank accounts from your past dealings? You could try a third party debt order.

Happytosave

greatcrested said:

Happytosave said:

.... it is not under any other name on the land registry so presumably not rented. Also the bailiffs spoke to neighbours who did not mention a landlord. ...

?? suggests you found it registered at the LR. But "not under any other name" so... under his name? I don't understand. Is it registered or not?

The property is not listed at all on the land registry

Happytosave

princeofpounds said:

I'm surprised the HCEOs didn't have more success, have you thought about sending them back again?

You can get a charging order, but you will need to evidence that he owns the property, and that's obviously hard without registration.

Some other ideas for you - have you thought about trying for an order to obtain information? He is then supposed to disclose under oath all sorts of things. 

Do you know any of his personal bank accounts from your past dealings? You could try a third party debt order.

Yes I thought the enforcement agents would have been more successful. They attended three times at different times of the day but he just kept the door closed even though they could hear dogs barking inside and lights on. I had to pay an abortive fee. I used a large, well known company.  
I don't have his bank info but another in our group did. They had his assets frozen a while ago on for fraud. They didn't get far though. I don't think he would be daft to keep his money in that account still. Am sure he would have emptied it a long time ago. Is there anyway through the land registry that I could obtain information about his ownership e.g. through the historical information section?
Can you please tell me about what an order to obtain information would end up giving me?
He is very dodgy. He won't reply to attempts by trading standards to interview him. He told them he was ill once. Despite posting pics on SM. I don't want to give up on this! Thank you

davidmcn

Happytosave said:

princeofpounds said:

I'm surprised the HCEOs didn't have more success, have you thought about sending them back again?

You can get a charging order, but you will need to evidence that he owns the property, and that's obviously hard without registration.

Some other ideas for you - have you thought about trying for an order to obtain information? He is then supposed to disclose under oath all sorts of things. 

Do you know any of his personal bank accounts from your past dealings? You could try a third party debt order.

Is there anyway through the land registry that I could obtain information about his ownership e.g. through the historical information section?

Until somebody registers the property, the LR will know absolutely nothing about it.

greatcrested

Happytosave said:

princeofpounds said:

I'm surprised the HCEOs didn't have more success, have you thought about sending them back again?

You can get a charging order, but you will need to evidence that he owns the property, and that's obviously hard without registration.

Some other ideas for you - have you thought about trying for an order to obtain information? He is then supposed to disclose under oath all sorts of things. 

Do you know any of his personal bank accounts from your past dealings? You could try a third party debt order.

...Is there anyway through the land registry that I could obtain information about his ownership e.g. through the historical information section?

If the property is not listed as registered with the LR, then the LR will have no information.

I don't know of any way you can serach the LR for any other property he might own. It must be physically possible, but probably only to HMRC, GCHQ and other authorites.

davidmcn

greatcrested said:

Happytosave said:

princeofpounds said:

I'm surprised the HCEOs didn't have more success, have you thought about sending them back again?

You can get a charging order, but you will need to evidence that he owns the property, and that's obviously hard without registration.

Some other ideas for you - have you thought about trying for an order to obtain information? He is then supposed to disclose under oath all sorts of things. 

Do you know any of his personal bank accounts from your past dealings? You could try a third party debt order.

...Is there anyway through the land registry that I could obtain information about his ownership e.g. through the historical information section?

I don't know of any way you can serach the LR for any other property he might own. It must be physically possible, but probably only to HMRC, GCHQ and other authorites.

Yes, not sure exactly what the criteria or procedure is but you need a Very Good Reason to do this in England & Wales. You can freely search the Land Register in Scotland by name even if you don't have a clue what a likely address is.

trex227

In a previous job at a conveyancers I once came across an unregistered property that when searched on the Land Registry had a "Caution against first registration" document when you searched the property. It wasn't the registered title, just a brief document stating X person had to be notified to give permission before registration could be completed. In that particular instance it was a neighbour who wanted to assert right of way (or something to that effect) rather than anything to do with money. The owner had no idea it had been put in place, though I think they would have been notified- letter must have been lost in the post.

However, from this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/caution-against-first-registration/practice-guide-3-cautions-against-first-registration

"As a general guide, any matter that can be registered as a land charge, whether or not it has been so registered, is a cautionable interest."

it would appear if you can get a charging order you might be able to get a caution against first registration. Might be worth speaking to the Land Registry to see if its possible and if so, what evidence etc. they would need to put the caution in place.