question about possible change of circumstance and ESA or PIP

darto150

Hi
I am enquiring on behalf of a friend, they are on ESA and PIP.  And they have mental health issues.

Prior to being on PIP, they were on DLA.   When the system changed from DLA to PIP, they got reassessed, were put on a very low level of PIP or no PIP at all.. They went through a lot of stress with PIP as it eventually went to appeal and a tribunal, before they got the correct rate. 

They are in ESA support group.

They are OK with the idea that if they did work, then money earned could reduce benefits.. But they are worried that if they did work then the benefits people will say Ah, "chamge of circumstances" and then they will have to reargue their case and go to trubunal again. 

They live with somebody that does a lot to help them organise things and help them with some of the issues they have.

If they write a computer program that may be useful to people, they aren't that keen on charging people.. but they want to make am option where a user can send a voluntary £10 or £20 if they find it useful.   If they did that, do they have to, or should they, tell the benefits people?   Or should they only say if the income exceed a certain level?

They are also thinking of doing some video tutorials, that they could put online, not free but at some price.,  Would that be something they would have to tell the benefits people if they did?

Is there a risk that any of those things would count as a "change of circumstances", and could either them telling the benefits people that they are thinking of doing that, or them doing that and getting some small income from it, have the effect  of being a "change of circumstances", and lead to them getting a lower level of PIP or ESA.. and then going to a tribunal if not now then after the coronavirus situation?

Thanks

poppy12345

PIP won't be affected because it's not means tested and you can work and claim PIP.

ESA would be affected but they can do permitted work. They can earn a maximum of £140 per week without it affecting their ESA. They must tell DWP they are working and they must fill out a PW1 form. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment-and-support-allowance-permitted-work-form/permitted-work-factsheet

They do need to be aware as you said that if the work they do go against the reasons they are claiming both benefits then they could be re-assessed early and it could go against them when the decision is made.

The most important thing here is that they tell DWP/ESA they are working.

darto150

What if they have done some programs that are useful to them already , as a hobby and never monetized them, and they put them out there with an option for people to pay e,g, £10 if they think the program is beneficial to them. So it would be receiving income but is it considered work?
Also, looking at the form, it says
"You do not need your doctor’s approval or to have a medical check before you do permitted work. But you must still go to any benefit-related assessments and appointments with a work coach that we ask you to, while you are getting benefit. If you do not go to a benefit-related assessment or appointments with a work coach, you may lose benefit payments."

At the moment they haven't been asked to go to any benefited-related assessment other than the standard one not related to work, but to determine what level of benefit they get and that's a one-off.  And they haven't had any appointments with a work coach.. Would that change if they sent this form out?  And what determines whether they are asked to go to such a thing?

poppy12345

Earned income is permitted work and must be reported to DWP. If they earn more than the maximum amount allowed per week then their ESA will stop.

I'm assuming they are in the Support Group so work focused interviews are not needed for those in this group. They also wouldn't have a work coach in the Support Group. You do not need your GP's approval to do any permitted work.

TELLIT01

Two absolutes with work and earnings on ESA are that they must be working less than 16 hours per week and not exceed the permitted earnings limit which poppy12345 has given as £140 per week.

darto150

I see the form mentions permitted work and and "supported permtted work" and supervision.

For the supported permitted work, since it mentions supervision, does the supervision have to be in person?  

Does it matter whether they pick "permitted work" or "supported permitted work"?

What difference does it make whether they are in the support group or the WRAG group?

Would that influence whether they choose "supported permitted work" or just "permitted work"?

If they are in the support group and go for permitted work, or supported permitted work, is there any danger that they would be moved to the WRAG group?

Would it matter if somebody had some support but didn't want to make it official (eg for fear of what that might involve), and so chose just permitted work rather than supported permitted work?

Thanks

poppy12345

They are both part of permitted work and it doesn't matter which group they are in. Either way DWP need to be informed and the hours and earnings rule still applies.

Spoonie_Turtle

The CAB website says this:

'Supported permitted work' is work that’s either:

• supervised by someone from a local council or voluntary organisation whose job it is to arrange work for disabled people
• part of a treatment programme under medical supervision

Which doesn't sound like it fits the situation, so they'd be doing permitted work rather than supported permitted work
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/working-while-getting-esa/ 

calcotti

darto150 said:

I see the form mentions permitted work and and "supported permtted work" and supervision.

For the supported permitted work, since it mentions supervision, does the supervision have to be in person?  

Does it matter whether they pick "permitted work" or "supported permitted work"?

What difference does it make whether they are in the support group or the WRAG group?

Would that influence whether they choose "supported permitted work" or just "permitted work"?

If they are in the support group and go for permitted work, or supported permitted work, is there any danger that they would be moved to the WRAG group?

Would it matter if somebody had some support but didn't want to make it official (eg for fear of what that might involve), and so chose just permitted work rather than supported permitted work?

Thanks

Supported permitted work is sort of irrelevant. From memory it used to be allowed for longer periods than ordinary permitted work but as ordinary permitted work now has no time limit you just need to think about the general rules which are as TELLIT01 described.

If anybody does permitted work if the work contradicts the reason they have been found to have Limited Capability for Work that may prompt a reassessment. So if you have a bad back and say you are going to be moving goods in a warehouse that is likely to raise questions.

darto150

Why do the DWP want to know whether the work is supported or not? 

poppy12345

darto150 said:

Why do the DWP want to know whether the work is supported or not? 

Didn't you read what calcotti just advised? support permitted work is irrelevant now.