Manned Equipment NIP 4 months late

79JadeLPS

So confused.
Today (17/04/2020), I've received a NIP for doing 38 in a 30 via manned equipment.  I don't dispute that I was the driver (I do dispute the signage for speed limit but I don't know the area so wouldn't challenge on this basis).  But the offense was for 13/12/19.
I thought that the NIP had to be sent within 14 days of the offense.  Is that true?

If that is the case, do I send back the NIP and then dispute whatever comes back with the delay for the reason?  
Has anyone had any luck on this basis? 
Thanks

k3lvc

Are you (and were you at the time) the registered keeper of the vehicle or has it already passed through an employer/leasing company/previous keeper in which case the 14 days is when it was served on them ?

neilmcl

Were you the registered keeper of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence?

You must complete the S172 driver declaration regardless. 

AdrianC

What have you actually received? s172 request to identify the driver?

Were you stopped at the time?

Is this the very first contact, sent to the name and address on the V5C at the time of the offence?

79JadeLPS

AdrianC said:

What have you actually received? s172 request to identify the driver?

Were you stopped at the time?

Is this the very first contact, sent to the name and address on the V5C at the time of the offence?

I have received what looks like a bad photocopy of a letter stating "notice of intended prosecution" 
Then asking me for provide information under section 172.  Its not very professional looking if I'm honest.
I was not stopped, and I was the driver of the car, I am the registered owner (no companies involved etc).  So I know that no other notices have been received up till this point.  
  I am reluctant to send anything back on such a poorly photocopied document.  

 If it is real, do I have grounds to appeal the fine/course on the basis that 4 months have lapsed in notification.

Thanks

DoaM

There is no such thing as a registered owner. You can be the owner, but the only details registered are those of the keeper.

Do you hold a copy of the V5C document? ... Yes/No
Does it have your correct name and address on it? ... Yes/No

Who does the S172 notice say you should respond to?
Note: do not mess about with a S172 notice. Failure to furnish details leads to a much higher fine and points, and will also hit you hard when it comes to insurance renewals.

79JadeLPS

DoaM said:

There is no such thing as a registered owner. You can be the owner, but the only details registered are those of the keeper.

Do you hold a copy of the V5C document? ... Yes/No
Does it have your correct name and address on it? ... Yes/No

Who does the S172 notice say you should respond to?
Note: do not mess about with a S172 notice. Failure to furnish details leads to a much higher fine and points, and will also hit you hard when it comes to insurance renewals.

I hold V5C and it has all my correct details on it, but this letter does not replicate my full name.
The letter always refers to owner/keeper.

Its telling me to send it to a PO box for South Yorkshire Police.  I've tried ringing the number but get cut off at the end of all the options.  

I'll send it back.

Are there grounds for appeal given that the notice is so late after the alleged offense? 

Mercdriver

You can reject the offer of a fixed penalty - you likely won't receive the offer of a course because of lockdown and that there are only 2 months until it would time out.  You would need to be able to rebut in the basis of probability the presumption that the first (and the piece of paper you have now is likely not the first) NIP wasn't served on you.  You have to send off the S172 regardless.  

I would advise going to pepipoo.com.  One of the members there fought his case and although he had the postman as his witness, he was still initially convicted and appealed to crown court and his appeal was upheld.

neilmcl

Fill in the S172 and send it back with a covering letter informing that you believe the NIP is out of time, giving both the date of alleged offence, the date of the NIP and the date it was received. Just one thing, you haven't changed address since the offence?

TooManyPoints

Mercdriver said:

 I would advise going to pepipoo.com.  One of the members there fought his case and although he had the postman as his witness, he was still initially convicted and appealed to crown court and his appeal was upheld.

Actually Mr Gidden had to go further than that. His appeal to the Crown Court was rejected and he had to appeal to the High Court by way of a "Case Stated". Details here:

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff73c60d03e7f57eaa291

The document the OP has is almost certainly not the "first NIP". It may be a copy but it is unlikely to be the original of the first. The intriguing thing is why it has taken four months to simply send a copy. Usually by now, though not required under the law, a reminder may have been sent. Also by now the usual form would be to consider proceedings for "Failing to provide driver's details". As the S172 notice must be responded to regardless of any problems with the NIP, I would do as Neil advises and ask, in a covering letter, why the NIP was served on you so late. Trouble is, you will almost certainly be told that the original was sent in time and no response was received. What is the date on the NIP you have?

In order to keep all your options open you need to respond quickly. The offence "times out" on 13th June (meaning no court action can be taken after that date). You are unlikely to be offered a course because (a) there are none being held because of the lockdown (although I have heard rumours of online equivalents being offered in some parts) but (b) it is too late anyway (they are usually only offered up to four months from the offence. A fixed penalty is also tight (they must give you 28 days to respond). Respond as suggested, see what they say and then decide whether you want to defend the matter on the basis of a late NIP. Make sure your details are 100% correct on the V5C and also look at the "docref" date at the foot of page 2 to see if it predates the offence date.    
 

TooManyPoints

I forgot to add that the case of Gidden and this are not the same. In his case there was no dispute that the NIP was served late. The prosecution accepted that it was. The dispute surrounded whether the prosecution could rely on the "presumption of service" (2 working days after posting) and whether that presumption was rebuttable. The prosecution argued that it was not and that the NIP was deemed to have been served 2 days after posting - even though it was common ground that wasn't! Mr Gidden argued that it was a rebuttable presumption and the High Court agreed.

Almost certainly here the prosecution will argue that the NIP is presumed to have been served 2 days after posting and it will be up to the OP to show that it was not.