Employer wants to only pay SSP but we have been furloughed as well

BrassicWoman

So, Legally. SSP is not due if you "decide" to self isolate. It is due if the following applies

"Employees and workers must receive any Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) due to them if they need to self-isolate because:

• they have coronavirus
• they have coronavirus symptoms, for example a high temperature or new continuous cough
• someone in their household has coronavirus symptoms
• they've been told to self-isolate by a doctor or NHS 111"

https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/self-isolation-and-sick-pay

Your employer CANNOT reclaim the SSP for short term absence, and arguably should not be using SSP anyway as you are ineligible for it!  They COULD reclaim furlough pay. 

So I would immediately suggest a conversation about how it is BETTER for her to furlough you as she has less to find from the business books.

BrassicWoman

I also don't understand how the OP is only to be furloughed for 2 weeks when the minimum is 3. Unless the employer is being difficult.

It's new and complicated and vague legislation. I'd suggest lack of experience rather than malice.

Comms69

JustAnotherSaver said:

Comms69 said:

Most people realise that employment is a voluntary exchange of labour for money; and that voluntary exchange is a two way street. Employers do things wrong all the time

You wouldn't think so, reading some of the replies on here.

Comms69 said:

In this case suggesting people self isolate for 2 weeks is utterly pointless. 

Doesnt change the fact though, that self-isolation is a choice and that choosing to do so does not entitle you to be paid.

Depends on what you're looking to achieve as to whether it's pointless.

Maybe the employer wants the employee to make a decision, so the employer can finger point and say YOU chose to stay off, you could've worked. Maybe they're of the opinion that nobody should be off and everyone should work (and not just their company). I know of people in my own company, top level people, who are not following any safety guidelines and openly make you feel stupid if you decide to 'be safe'. Sarcastic comments and the like.

Comms69 said:

People are working through this. Lots of people. So yes an employer can have an attitude of "you're expected to work if there's nothing wrong with you". No-one is saying your job should come before everything else. You can choose to quit if you want to.

It's not as easy as 'choosing to quit'. You may be able to walk in to a job tomorrow if you so wish but not everyone has that luxury. Some people like their job but they also want to be safe. Maybe their employer isn't doing enough as far as safety measures go. Maybe they are but they still feel they're at risk. Maybe they see the figures and they're worried about dying for their job. I know that last one certainly applies to me. I know people at work will laugh at me for that as it will mean i am 'soft' and 'not macho' but so be it. Maybe they're scared of no income, maybe they have a family to support and they worry about how soon they could get another job so they feel trapped. They want to work but they want to feel safe.

I don't understand why they wont furlough if they're closing down though, other than just wanting to make it difficult because they got the hump. If they're on SSP then the company is paying up. I never used to think the employer pays for the SSP but my employer said otherwise, they said they do and they don't get that money back so i'll assume that is correct info. If they're furloughed then the government are paying them.

I also don't understand how the OP is only to be furloughed for 2 weeks when the minimum is 3. Unless the employer is being difficult.

Those people are allowed to make those comments (the top level at your employer), atleast in England, as the social distancing guidelines have zero legal basis. 

It is as easy as choosing to quit. There might be other factors as to why you might choose not to quit. e.g. lack of savings, job competition, etc. But these are choices, and people are responsible for their choices. 

Maybe their employer isnt doing enough. So choose your safety over your income. Choice.

Maybe they do feel at risk, choice. 

Maybe they do see the figures (which are still a fraction of a percent), choices.

Employers pay SSP and claim it back, in effect. So they do get the money back, because it's all accounted for at tax time.

JReacher1

JustAnotherSaver said:

Reading through this, my take on it is so...

There's a lot of people on here who live in a perfect airy fairy world who think that employers can do no wrong and all employers are the most honest people in the world and all employees are the devil reincarnated, lazy as they come and they come to MSE to do nothing but lie and make excuses.
Yeah right. Some may but some people on here act like ALL employers are holier than thou.

So coming from the real world and knowing that while some employers do right by their employee (my partners employer is one such person in my view - has done fantastically well at protecting her staff) there are those who aren't the most honest people you've ever met.

Sounds to me like this employer was testing the waters so to speak. Employer has clearly had a fair few emails their way saying we're scared and we don't want to be at risk.
Employer has got the hump about it. Probably has a you should work at all costs and there's nothing wrong with expecting you to be willing to die for this job attitude. It's your job and your job should come before absolutely anything bar nothing.

So how dare you request to be off when there's nothing wrong with you. I'll teach you a lesson, i'll put you on SSP, the bare minimum you can get. See how you like it then.


Note to yourself ... there's nothing wrong with accusing your boss of fraud on here. So long as they can't identify you. If you say i work for such and such a company in such and such a town then that's daft, but you didn't do that. People are either overreacting that you've suggested fraud on a public forum
OR
they're suggesting that 'in real life' you should be careful what you say. Don't imply anything to your co-workers for example because someone could report you for whatever reason they wish. Maybe they want to climb the ladder at your expense, maybe they don't like you. Nothing wrong with saying what you said online though. I've no idea who you are or what county you even live in. I wonder also if my employer is doing everything above board. In fact i know for one thing they're not as they let slip but if i did anything about it then my work life would be made hell so it's pointless.

Not sure why they're furloughing you for 2 weeks though when the minimum is 3 weeks??

This is a very long winded way to say you agree with me and the OP should be careful over who she tells her boss is committing fraud to 😀

Splatfoot

It could be 2 weeks ssp and 2 weeks 80% furlough if the employee is paid 4 weekly. That might just be what she is receiving in this month's pay. Next month could  have the further weeks furlough and whatever comes next.

BrassicWoman

Comms69 said:

Employers pay SSP and claim it back, in effect. So they do get the money back, because it's all accounted for at tax time.

This has been untrue for many years. The employer cannot reclaim SSP.

Current .gov wording: the law has not changed yet. Also this employee is choosing to self isolate, and is not required to. So, SSP does not apply.
"HMRC expects the law to change to allow small and medium-sized enterprises (SME) to reclaim 2 weeks’ SSP they have paid to employees who are self-isolating because of coronavirus (COVID-19). This page will be updated if the law changes."

Comms69

BrassicWoman said:

Comms69 said:

Employers pay SSP and claim it back, in effect. So they do get the money back, because it's all accounted for at tax time.

This has been untrue for many years. The employer cannot reclaim SSP.

Current .gov wording: the law has not changed yet. Also this employee is choosing to self isolate, and is not required to. So, SSP does not apply.
"HMRC expects the law to change to allow small and medium-sized enterprises (SME) to reclaim 2 weeks’ SSP they have paid to employees who are self-isolating because of coronavirus (COVID-19). This page will be updated if the law changes."

Unless i've totally misunderstood, they claim it back against tax at the end of the year?

General_Grant

Comms69 said:

BrassicWoman said:

Comms69 said:

Employers pay SSP and claim it back, in effect. So they do get the money back, because it's all accounted for at tax time.

This has been untrue for many years. The employer cannot reclaim SSP.

Current .gov wording: the law has not changed yet. Also this employee is choosing to self isolate, and is not required to. So, SSP does not apply.
"HMRC expects the law to change to allow small and medium-sized enterprises (SME) to reclaim 2 weeks’ SSP they have paid to employees who are self-isolating because of coronavirus (COVID-19). This page will be updated if the law changes."

Unless i've totally misunderstood, they claim it back against tax at the end of the year?

Well SSP is a business expense, like wages or toilet rolls for the staff facilities.

However https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-back-statutory-sick-pay-paid-to-employees-due-to-coronavirus-covid-19 shows intention to pay at last year's rate for up to two weeks if due to coronavirus.

Comms69

General_Grant said:

Comms69 said:

BrassicWoman said:

Comms69 said:

Employers pay SSP and claim it back, in effect. So they do get the money back, because it's all accounted for at tax time.

This has been untrue for many years. The employer cannot reclaim SSP.

Current .gov wording: the law has not changed yet. Also this employee is choosing to self isolate, and is not required to. So, SSP does not apply.
"HMRC expects the law to change to allow small and medium-sized enterprises (SME) to reclaim 2 weeks’ SSP they have paid to employees who are self-isolating because of coronavirus (COVID-19). This page will be updated if the law changes."

Unless i've totally misunderstood, they claim it back against tax at the end of the year?

Well SSP is a business expense, like wages or toilet rolls for the staff facilities.

However https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-back-statutory-sick-pay-paid-to-employees-due-to-coronavirus-covid-19 shows intention to pay at last year's rate for up to two weeks if due to coronavirus.

Gotcha thanks - i was pretty sure it was deductible. 

BrassicWoman

Comms69 said:

Unless i've totally misunderstood, they claim it back against tax at the end of the year?

As an expense, not a reimbursement; and the law is yet to change to say anything else applies. So, it is not a cost neutral move for the employer.