Concerns about doing full duties when returning to work (social distancing).

Forum_Name

We've been furloughed and we now have a return to work date.

To cut to the chase, i'm concerned about doing full duties on my return. There'll be plenty that i can do but also there's a fair number of tasks that i will be unable to do without falling foul of the 2 metre guideline/ruling. Some tasks i'd be stood shoulder to shoulder with another member of staff for example whereas others i'd be stood in and about a group of people potentially. 
My employer has said that they will "do their best" to meet the guidelines but i suppose some of you know how these things can go: what's down on paper isn't always what's put in to practice. A few people are back at work already and i asked about the tasks being carried out. For some tasks where you were huddled in and about the public, you still are. 

In the build up to the lock down that came on Monday 23rd March i gave my employer notice that i would not be standing in close proximity to a group of people (worded it different to make sense to our role but that was the jist) as i believe that was the guideline at the time. Up until then you'd have 10 people pretty much huddled together. Not wanting to come across as being difficult, i offered an alternative approach so that it would not impact on the company as severely as it could although it would inevitably still impact.
I was in such a situation that was acceptable but then more and more people started pouring in, one of which being the employer who is extremely sarcastic. The employer immediately went to take a dig at me that i was stood in and amongst a group of people when i said that i wouldn't, but as he started saying i just walked out as i said i would. 

I work in an industry that is not known for its cleanliness. Even before all this, people coughing and sneezing but not bothering to cover their face & you see the spray going everywhere. Many of them are like this. 

So basically i'm concerned about going back and the tasks that require being in close proximity to others. There is no workaround for some of these tasks. Two-person lifting within less than 0.5mtr of each other is unavoidable for some tasks. You either do it or you don't do it. We serve the public and this can often lead to rubbing shoulders with a good number of them as you serve them with their orders. There is a workaround to this - you can get their products and let them handle them themselves or you tell them to remain in their vehicle and you'll do all the handling. This will add on significant time and we're not talking about patient people here. They are more likely to handle themselves than sit and wait on you but there's a risk they will grumble about either. 

Just wondering where i would stand on such a case or advice on how to approach it. I'm not wanting to be difficult at all but nor am i wanting to wind up with this virus for my job just because some grubby member of the public refused to wash their hands/cover their face when coughing and sneezing/stop at home. 

Comms69

Social distancing is not the law. Whilst your employer is foolish if they dont make all reasonable efforts. 2 metres is not subject to legislation. 

Forum_Name

Comms69 said:

Social distancing is not the law. Whilst your employer is foolish if they dont make all reasonable efforts. 2 metres is not subject to legislation. 

Ok thanks for clarification.

So i say - look i'm concerned about this situation and i don't want to get close to the public so i propose this as a workaround to avoid that. It's not ideal but it's the best thing given the circumstances.

And my boss says - i don't give a damn what your concern is and i don't particularly care about your health either. When you die you're in a low paid low skilled job so i'll replace you no problem, just make sure you don't die on company property as it may cause me a problem. Now hurry up and tend to that member of the public like we'd never even heard of coronavirus or social distancing.

And i would basically have to do it or face disciplinary action & therefore the sack?

Just to be clear.

Andy_L

Forum_Name said:

Comms69 said:

Social distancing is not the law. Whilst your employer is foolish if they dont make all reasonable efforts. 2 metres is not subject to legislation. 

Ok thanks for clarification.

So i say - look i'm concerned about this situation and i don't want to get close to the public so i propose this as a workaround to avoid that. It's not ideal but it's the best thing given the circumstances.

And my boss says - i don't give a damn what your concern is and i don't particularly care about your health either. When you die you're in a low paid low skilled job so i'll replace you no problem, just make sure you don't die on company property as it may cause me a problem. Now hurry up and tend to that member of the public like we'd never even heard of coronavirus or social distancing.

And i would basically have to do it or face disciplinary action & therefore the sack?

Just to be clear.

Yes. You could try the defence at the disciplinary re social distance, H&S etc but since (as Comms69 said) it's not a legal requirement I wouldn't hold out much hope.

How long have you worked there? <2 years and he can, more or less, instantly fire you for any reason, pay your your notice pay & you're out

Comms69

Forum_Name said:

Comms69 said:

Social distancing is not the law. Whilst your employer is foolish if they dont make all reasonable efforts. 2 metres is not subject to legislation. 

Ok thanks for clarification.

So i say - look i'm concerned about this situation and i don't want to get close to the public so i propose this as a workaround to avoid that. It's not ideal but it's the best thing given the circumstances.

And my boss says - i don't give a damn what your concern is and i don't particularly care about your health either. When you die you're in a low paid low skilled job so i'll replace you no problem, just make sure you don't die on company property as it may cause me a problem. Now hurry up and tend to that member of the public like we'd never even heard of coronavirus or social distancing.

And i would basically have to do it or face disciplinary action & therefore the sack?

Just to be clear.

Basically yes.
Just to put into context - most front line staff cannot maintain social distancing 100% of the time. And the virus is often transmitted via objects anyway. 

bap98189

Forum_Name said:

And my boss says - i don't give a damn what your concern is and i don't particularly care about your health either. When you die you're in a low paid low skilled job so i'll replace you no problem, just make sure you don't die on company property as it may cause me a problem. Now hurry up and tend to that member of the public like we'd never even heard of coronavirus or social distancing.

You do realise that the 2 meter distance it not an absolute guarantee of safety. It is just an arbitrary distance the public are being told to keep apart because the public respond to simple messages better than complex ones. The probability of inhaling the virus from another person's breath decreases as you get further away from them, but 2 meters is not an absolute safe distance. You can catch it whilst more than that distance apart from someone.

Forum_Name

Andy_L said:

How long have you worked there? <2 years and he can, more or less, instantly fire you for any reason, pay your your notice pay & you're out

Considerably longer than that. There's very few people who have worked for the company longer than me.

bap98189 said:

You do realise that the 2 meter distance it not an absolute guarantee of safety

I've probably watched more on it and read more on it than your average Joe. I'm well aware that twice that distance doesn't guarantee you safety, although 2 metres is a start. It's something at least. I'm also well aware that this 'stays alive on a surface for 9 hours' or whatever number the people down the pub inserted before the word hours isn't true either and that for some surfaces if you turn the word hours to days, even 5-7 days it can also be true.

suki1964

You are also responsible for your own health and safety

When shopping in Tesco, there are some staff who are wearing masks and gloves, others who aren't  Im assuming those that are are more concerned then others, they may have vulnerable family members for example

Same in the queues, some do and some don't

There is nothing to stop you purchasing masks and gloves to wear in work, or make your own mask

I also work where we cant always keep the social distancing, but I do my best, stepping aside if passing someone, standing back where someone is already at the place I need to be, it kind of becomes second nature

Forum_Name

suki, i agree with you. Before the lock down I was about the only one who appeared conscious of keeping distance. I was the only one within my department who would wash my hands before my break, then bleach down all the surfaces and then wash my hands again before i ate. For me it is not that difficult to do because you adopt the mindset: if you can touch it it can kill you so clean it.

I have done much searching on this as well as asking here and i found something interesting:

merchants should continue to operate. Ideally, this should be through online and delivery services, but those who need to maintain depot service are able to do so providing they observe PHE guidance including social distancing, cleaning and hygiene, staff welfare, and all other means to minimise the risks of transmitting coronavirus

I don't know whether it's the same case as we saw on the night of Monday 23rd March where people were taking their own interpretation from the announcement but I take from the above which has apparently been "government confirmed" that where i work can stay open providing they observe ...<social distancing>, meaning if they do not then they cannot.
Which would suggest that there is nothing wrong with my viewpoint. Anything that would normally be a two person lift and have you in close proximity to each other - use machinery to handle it (without going in to detail, it's possible, but you have to be a damn good machine driver in certain situations to avoid damage. Not to blow my own trumpet but i can do that whereas others struggle). As for huddling around the public as you deal with their orders, the above quote would suggest my workaround of they stay in their vehicle while i deal with their order or i bring their order and they handle it themselves (while i go away on another task) would be acceptable as you are still doing the task of dealing with the customers order but you are doing it in a safe manner, even though that may take twice as long as usual (such as only one of you handling a load of product instead of the usual two: the customer and the staff member). 

suki1964

Listen to https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000h2pc. about 1 hour 34 mins

Andy_L

Forum_Name said:

I have done much searching on this as well as asking here and i found something interesting:

merchants should continue to operate. Ideally, this should be through online and delivery services, but those who need to maintain depot service are able to do so providing they observe PHE guidance including social distancing, cleaning and hygiene, staff welfare, and all other means to minimise the risks of transmitting coronavirus

Do you have a link, the closest I've found to that form of words is a statement by the trade body rather than Gov guidance/legislation. It seems unlikely that one specific industry must observe it while all the rest just have to do it where possible