Has anyone received a PCN related to the St. Andrews Retail park in Hull?

davidbb

I'm hopefully looking for some help. We received a PCN relating to St. Andrews retail park in Hull late last year. The PCN listed the retail park as being located at the post code HU3 2AA. We weren't parked at that post code, and as it turns out the post code is actually over a mile away from the car park in question which is located at HU3 4EJ.
Anyway long story short we appealed. VCS ltd, the parking company insisted that we did indeed park at the post code HU3 2AA and all communications at that point referenced that as the location of the contravention.
We took the case to adjudication with the IAS, made our case etc. VCS were still insisting we parked at HU3 2AA until we pointed this out to them. Now this is where things get a bit dodgy, they referred to the mistake as a "typo" and insisted it didn't matter, they even argued that St. Andrews retail park couldn't be confused with any other car park in Hull so I couldn't have been confused as to the location, I pointed out to them that also around a mile away there was a St. Andrews Quay retail park, so actually yes I could be confused, even though it was irrelevant. Unsurprisingly the IAS sided with VCS claiming that a "typo" was an acceptable mistake.
I made a complaint to the IPC claiming breach of their code, on the grounds of VCS not upholding professional standards as they should in accordance with the code. VCS put the error down to administrative error and again, unsurprisingly the IPC said that was perfectly acceptable and not unprofessional. I have since noticed that when I visit the page to make payment that the post code of the car park has been amended to the correct one.

So here we are, I don't for a second believe that the mistake was a typo or an administrative error, I believe it was down to them keeping incorrect records and so I'm hoping if someone can provide proof that VCS lied during appeal and arbitration (yes, i know it's not a legal process) I can argue unfair contract terms as I was not given the right to a fair appeal. Further to this, at the very least I can argue that evidence VCS may present to the small claims court may not be entirely reliable.

Can anyone help? 

KeithP

To answer the question in your title, yes, here's one thread...
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5492998/pcn-and-moved-house/p1

and here's another...
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5836884/urgent-help-needed-bwl/p1

Fruitcake

Hopefully you still have the original PCN/NTK with the incorrect post code, and all correspondence since. 
Obviously don't pay, but do go back to the payment page and take a screengrab.

The scammers don't get a second chance at issuing the NTK, so I think you will have a good defence if this goes to court.

If possible under the current lockdown, get pics of the site and signage at both locations. If they are a walk, run, or bike ride away then use your allowed exercise period to go and take photos if it is safe to do so. The sooner you get pics the better.

Also have a look on Google Maps Street View. You haven't said when the alleged event occurred, but you can use the timeline slider to look at earlier photos and take screengrabs.

Complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

Have you read the sticky thread for NEWBIES yet? The second post will be needed if the scammers decide to make a court claim.

Did you reveal the driver's identity in your appeals and correspondence? I hope not.

davidbb

KeithP said:

To answer the question in your title, yes, here's one thread...
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5492998/pcn-and-moved-house/p1

and here's another...
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5836884/urgent-help-needed-bwl/p1

I'd already looked through these two, no reference to a post code or picture of the NTK so unfortunately not too helpful
.Fruitcake said:

Hopefully you still have the original PCN/NTK with the incorrect post code, and all correspondence since. 
Obviously don't pay, but do go back to the payment page and take a screengrab.

The scammers don't get a second chance at issuing the NTK, so I think you will have a good defence if this goes to court.

If possible under the current lockdown, get pics of the site and signage at both locations. If they are a walk, run, or bike ride away then use your allowed exercise period to go and take photos if it is safe to do so. The sooner you get pics the better.

Also have a look on Google Maps Street View. You haven't said when the alleged event occurred, but you can use the timeline slider to look at earlier photos and take screengrabs.

Complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

Have you read the sticky thread for NEWBIES yet? The second post will be needed if the scammers decide to make a court claim.

Did you reveal the driver's identity in your appeals and correspondence? I hope not.

Yes I still have the original PCN/NTK the alleged contravention was November last year so already been through the appeal/arbitration. Their argument is that because they partially had the address correct then the NTK is valid, which in my eyes is the same as saying that an NTK can be valid if they have half of the number plate correct.
The signage won't make any difference, it's there at the car par with the right name, obviously it's not there at the incorrect post code.
I didn't reveal drivers identity, one thing that concerned me was the wording on the second letter (see below)

"In order for us to process your appeal correctly, please follow the instructions below:

1. Notify the driver of the vehicle that they will need to appeal to us directly, including their FULL NAME (Forename

and Surname) and a valid FULL SERVICEABLE ADDRESS within 14 days.

2. If you are representing the driver we require a signed and dated statement from the driver of the vehicle confirming

that you are authorised to appeal on his/her behalf; this needs to be an original signature and not a photocopy or a

stamp. The statement MUST contain the drivers FULL NAME (Forename and Surname) and a valid FULL

SERVICEABLE ADDRESS. "

Nowhere on this letter does it state I do not have to name the driver, it also implies that I cannot appeal unless I name the driver.
During the adjudication they made several attempts to trip me up by stating "The appellant fails to respond to the matter of the contravention itself or raise any kind of challenge or mitigation towards it." I promptly replied each time with the fact that I had responded to the matter by appealing and bringing the case to adjudication.
Two other things stood out as misleading in their response during adjudication.
1. I challenged them that photographic evidence is considered hearsay evidence, the responded by saying that it is not and is an accurate record of the visit. Now as far as i'm aware (I may be misinterpreting) both the criminal justice act and the civil evidence act both identify photographic evidence as hearsay.
2. I also challenged them that the photo could be inaccurate or doctored given that they had been both negligent and misleading. Their response to this was "The Information/Status box which appears on all ANPR images is firmware inserted into the image at source by the ANPR unit. It cannot be modified, edited or altered once it has been recorded" Which is clearly false as only the untampered box would contain the original, the "evidence" they present is a digital image obtained from the box which unless they have skills beyond that of most governments and technological giants can be easily be modified.
Anyway, a huge amount of inconsistencies, but my main argument is that my appeal was based solely on not parking at that post code, am I right to say that by accepting that the post code was wrong that they have essentially accepted the grounds for appeal were valid? Appeal and adjudication sided with them so next step is court.

KeithP

davidbb said:

KeithP said:

To answer the question in your title, yes, here's one thread...
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5492998/pcn-and-moved-house/p1

and here's another...
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5836884/urgent-help-needed-bwl/p1

I'd already looked through these two, no reference to a post code or picture of the NTK so unfortunately not too helpful.

Oh, I only answered your question, which was -

Has anyone received a PCN related to the St. Andrews Retail park in Hull?

Perhaps you asked the wrong question.  

Fruitcake

Signage is critical to form a contract. Showing that there is no signage at the location stated on the NTK means there cannot have been a contract between the scammers and motorists. 
If the signage at the location that the scammers intended to state on their NTK is inadequate, then a contract cannot have been formed.
You may not understand why the regulars might suggest doing something, but please be assured it is in the motorist's best interest to do as suggested/requested.

The keeper has protections in law that the driver does not. Their "instructions" are nothing but an attempt to get you to blab about the driver's identity. Luckily you were astute enough not to fall for it. It's all part of the scam.

I have never heard of photographic evidence being hearsay. If the metadata shows the time and date when the image was captured, I'm pretty surre a judge will allow it.

As for ANPR scamera images, they are taken by a digital camera then run through an optical recognition programme to convert them to an alpha-numeric version. Rusty screws, cracks, light, shadow, etcetera can fool this conversion and produce an image with a different VRM to that of the vehicle. In addition, scammers set the system to discard everything exept the first entry and last exit to make it look as if a vehicle was on site for longer than it actually was, resulting in the classic double dip scam.
 There are other flaws as well, which is why the UK government has prohinited their use in council and local authority car parks. The scammers use these flaws to generate income.

If you have appealed and used the ill advised kangaroo court that is the IAS, then you asre in ignore mode unless/until you get real court papers.

Other than that, it's complain to the landowner. complain to your MP. gather evidence, and read the second post of the NEWBIES.

Coupon-mad

What happened when you complained to the firm that run th retail park, as is shown in the Newbies thread to be 'Plan A'? 

It is never too late to try.  Someone I helped re Borehamwood Retail park, re 2 PCNs from 2017 and 2018, got them both cancelled this week with a single complaint email to Savills, who run that place.

And no, thre is no template complaint for obvious reasons of:
(a) keeping it real and specific
(b) not spoonfeeding the easy stuff
(c) making people make complaints from the heart

Fruitcake

One other thing, the NTK is non PoFA compliant at least because it has failed to define the relevant land where the vehicle was allegedly parked.

9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

D_P_Dance

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully, when life gets back to normal, it will become impossible for those scammers who are left to continue their vile trade, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.