Face masks from the chemist

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  • neilmcl
    neilmcl Posts: 19,460
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    edited 3 April 2020 at 7:27PM
    Quote today from the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Professor Jonathan Van-Tam who also happens to be a globally respected expert in influenza, vaccines and respiratory illness - 

    "There is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society."

    "In terms of the hard evidence and what the UK Government recommends, we do not recommend face masks for general wearing by the public."

    Take from that as you will.
  • SnowMan
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    He based that view on an anecdotal conversation and the advice of WHO, they never get things wrong do they. I just hope that he hasn't backed himself into a corner with that remark. I see the Centre for Disease Control in America now recommends using a face cloth.
    If we look at proper evidence instead, here's a new trial out to add to all the other evidence that masks work against these types of viruses.
    Nobody can say for sure, but there is strong evidence masks work against this type of virus. But if it turns out that despite the strong evidence experimentally and mechanistically, there is something very unusual about covid-19 that means masks are relatively ineffective, then the downsides of recommending face masks are quite small, but the upside of recommending masks when, as is likely, they are a very effective measure (to be added to other measures) is huge. The recommendation to wear face masks becomes obvious.




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  • neilmcl
    neilmcl Posts: 19,460
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    edited 4 April 2020 at 9:05AM
    SnowMan said:
    He based that view on an anecdotal conversation and the advice of WHO, they never get things wrong do they. I just hope that he hasn't backed himself into a corner with that remark. I see the Centre for Disease Control in America now recommends using a face cloth.
    If we look at proper evidence instead, here's a new trial out to add to all the other evidence that masks work against these types of viruses.
    Nobody can say for sure, but there is strong evidence masks work against this type of virus. But if it turns out that despite the strong evidence experimentally and mechanistically, there is something very unusual about covid-19 that means masks are relatively ineffective, then the downsides of recommending face masks are quite small, but the upside of recommending masks when, as is likely, they are a very effective measure (to be added to other measures) is huge. The recommendation to wear face masks becomes obvious.




    I haven't fully looked at that paper but in the very first paragraph it pretty much backs up what the experts here have indicated:

    "Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals."

    In other words those showing symptoms can spread the virus if not wearing a mask. Well durr, that's pretty damn obvious. What the scientists here are saying is that there is no evidence that the spread is affected by the general use of masks by seemingly well members of the public. The highest risk of getting the virus is via touching surfaces and then touching your face hence the clear message about hand hygiene. General wearing of masks, particularly when done incorrectly gives a false sense of security and can heighten that risk due to the wearers touching their faces more during the mask's use as well as the simple fact that a mask does nothing to protect the eyes, even the Americans have said that.

    People are generally wearing a face mask to prevent getting the virus rather than spreading it and I'll say again, unless everyone is wearing a mask when out in the public then the danger to them will still persist so they need to be especially careful that they don't contaminate themselves when using the mask. Sadly I've not seen much evidence of people doing this.
  • SnowMan
    SnowMan Posts: 3,350
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    edited 4 April 2020 at 10:20AM
    Of course they studied symptomatic patients for the obvious reason it is hard to locate the asymptomatic people and so their conclusions relate solely to symptomatic patients
    So let's use other evidence (not assertions like yours based on biases, but evidence) to see what this means. Perhaps 25% or more of COVID19 infections result from asymptomatic carriers who shed just as much virus as those with symptoms
    So would the starting position not be that masks are useful to prevent asymptomatic carriers passing it on also? If not where is your evidence to show otherwise.

    You say 'unless everyone is wearing a mask when out in public then the danger to them will still persist'. So you seem to be accepting the possibility that wearing a mask does stop infection being passed on, so yes I agree with you. And so if you care about your fellow citizen, wear a mask. You protect me and I protect you applies here, and if you aren't going to protect me I'm still happy to protect you. Most people don't breathe through their eyes and so the lack of eye protection doesn't affect attempts to mitigate the virus being passed on through breath, but the mask covering mouth and nose can help.



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  • afis1904
    afis1904 Posts: 348
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    SnowMan said:

    You say 'unless everyone is wearing a mask when out in public then the danger to them will still persist'. So you seem to be accepting the possibility that wearing a mask does stop infection being passed on, so yes I agree with you. And so if you care about your fellow citizen, wear a mask. You protect me and I protect you applies here, and if you aren't going to protect me I'm still happy to protect you. Most people don't breathe through their eyes and so the lack of eye protection doesn't affect attempts to mitigate the virus being passed on through breath, but the mask covering mouth and nose can help.



    One important point that this argument keeps missing is that there's inadequate supply of any sort of masks and not everyone can make one themselves or knows someone who can so pressuring people into wearing one is quite irresponsible.
  • borderline
    borderline Posts: 341
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    afis1904 said:
    One important point that this argument keeps missing is that there's inadequate supply of any sort of masks and not everyone can make one themselves or knows someone who can so pressuring people into wearing one is quite irresponsible.
    this is what I think too. If they supply was not an issue I'm sure they would encourage people to wear them. 
  • neilmcl
    neilmcl Posts: 19,460
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    SnowMan said:
    Of course they studied symptomatic patients for the obvious reason it is hard to locate the asymptomatic people and so their conclusions relate solely to symptomatic patients
    So let's use other evidence (not assertions like yours based on biases, but evidence) to see what this means. Perhaps 25% or more of COVID19 infections result from asymptomatic carriers who shed just as much virus as those with symptoms
    So would the starting position not be that masks are useful to prevent asymptomatic carriers passing it on also? If not where is your evidence to show otherwise.

    You say 'unless everyone is wearing a mask when out in public then the danger to them will still persist'. So you seem to be accepting the possibility that wearing a mask does stop infection being passed on, so yes I agree with you. And so if you care about your fellow citizen, wear a mask. You protect me and I protect you applies here, and if you aren't going to protect me I'm still happy to protect you. Most people don't breathe through their eyes and so the lack of eye protection doesn't affect attempts to mitigate the virus being passed on through breath, but the mask covering mouth and nose can help.



    I've never said otherwise. I'm simply responding to the situation we have here in the UK, right now and to those thinking they are mitigating the risk of catching the virus (not spreading) by buying and wearing surgical masks.

    I don't doubt that countries like the Czech Republic may have got it right but every country is different and what works in one may not work or be possible in another. The Czech Republic is a fraction of the size of the UK, socially their people may well be different to us here. Here we can't even follow the basics of rules without being threatened with legal sanction so I doubt the same message would've worked or will work here.
  • SnowMan
    SnowMan Posts: 3,350
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    edited 4 April 2020 at 11:07AM
    afis1904 said:
    SnowMan said:

    You say 'unless everyone is wearing a mask when out in public then the danger to them will still persist'. So you seem to be accepting the possibility that wearing a mask does stop infection being passed on, so yes I agree with you. And so if you care about your fellow citizen, wear a mask. You protect me and I protect you applies here, and if you aren't going to protect me I'm still happy to protect you. Most people don't breathe through their eyes and so the lack of eye protection doesn't affect attempts to mitigate the virus being passed on through breath, but the mask covering mouth and nose can help.



    One important point that this argument keeps missing is that there's inadequate supply of any sort of masks and not everyone can make one themselves or knows someone who can so pressuring people into wearing one is quite irresponsible.

    Obviously surgical masks (such as R95) are limited in supply and should be kept for the medical profession. There is a small risk that some people will then attempt to get hold of R95 type masks, but the benefit I would suggest greatly outweighs the disadvantage?
    There is an argument against making masks compulsory rather than recommending people wear them if at all possible, and I don't know where I stand on that, it's balanced, but would probably hedge towards strong recommendation in all indoor public spaces.
    But if we accept masks do help to restrict the spread of the virus and use of them helps in a material way to reduce the spread of the virus, and to 'flatten the curve', is it on balance not far more responsible to recommend people wear masks, at the downside, which I acknowledge, of some people feeling pressurised?  

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  • afis1904
    afis1904 Posts: 348
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    The main downside is that people will be attacked (verbally most likely) for not wearing masks when there is no supply and when not everyone can just make one. I do think it would help but it's just not responsibly practicable.
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