We are directors and want to furlough as not a penny coming in.

HornetSaver

@AdeJ - this also doesn't answer your question (and regardless, I strongly stand by my previous advice to wait and see what Sunak says today).

But bearing in mind that you could be considered either employer and employee, or both, and taking into account Martin Lewis' steer that the Government is trying to catch people within the furlough net, not find reasons to exclude them, it might be that you are in a position to take your pick. I'm not trying to give false hope. I appreciate the position you are in is that you need to identify the route to go down that will give you the most help with the most certainty, and that the worst possible outcome is you commit to the wrong route and later discover that another would have gotten you the financial support. But I think until the nature of what Sunak is outlining for the self-employed is known, it is particularly difficult for anyone to advise on what would give you the best outcome. Certainly there are others who would do it better than me, but not without being in possession of relevant information that they know they have not yet received.

neilmcl

Luvoj said:

Under the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, all UK employers with a PAYE scheme will be able to access support to continue paying part of their employees’ salary for those that would otherwise have been laid off during this crisis.

This applies to employees who have been asked to stop working, but who are being kept on the pay roll, otherwise described as ‘furloughed workers’. HMRC will reimburse 80% of their wages, up to £2,500 per month. This is to safeguard workers from being made redundant.

If I am unable to access the scheme, I will make myself redundant. That will also mean winding up the business, thereby making my 3 employees also redundant.

I can assure you I will move heaven & earth to prevent that happening to any of us.

We're well aware of what the scheme does but that doesn't take away from the fact that you will unlikely be able to benefit from this as you're not technically an employee. You can't makes yourself redundant but yes you can close your business if that's your choice.

The whole point of this is that the Government have looked ta what the biggest expenditure of business tends to be and that is the wage bill and by them reducing this significantly and by using other means such as grants/loans and business rate deferrals businesses can stay afloat. 

neilmcl

HornetSaver said:

@AdeJ - this also doesn't answer your question (and regardless, I strongly stand by my previous advice to wait and see what Sunak says today).

But bearing in mind that you could be considered either employer and employee, or both, and taking into account Martin Lewis' steer that the Government is trying to catch people within the furlough net, not find reasons to exclude them, it might be that you are in a position to take your pick. I'm not trying to give false hope. I appreciate the position you are in is that you need to identify the route to go down that will give you the most help with the most certainty, and that the worst possible outcome is you commit to the wrong route and later discover that another would have gotten you the financial support. But I think until the nature of what Sunak is outlining for the self-employed is known, it is particularly difficult for anyone to advise on what would give you the best outcome. Certainly there are others who would do it better than me, but not without being in possession of relevant information that they know they have not yet received.

Good point and I'm kind of hoping that this will be the case because for a lot of cases going under the retention scheme would be preferable and easier to administer, but of course this wont be suitable for others.

Jeremy535897

I have continually ducked the question of two directors with one making the other furloughed because it just doesn't feel right. It's more analogous to a partnership and so see what the Chancellor says for the self employed today.

Luvoj

neilmcl said:

Luvoj said:

Under the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, all UK employers with a PAYE scheme will be able to access support to continue paying part of their employees’ salary for those that would otherwise have been laid off during this crisis.

This applies to employees who have been asked to stop working, but who are being kept on the pay roll, otherwise described as ‘furloughed workers’. HMRC will reimburse 80% of their wages, up to £2,500 per month. This is to safeguard workers from being made redundant.

If I am unable to access the scheme, I will make myself redundant. That will also mean winding up the business, thereby making my 3 employees also redundant.

I can assure you I will move heaven & earth to prevent that happening to any of us.

We're well aware of what the scheme does but that doesn't take away from the fact that you will unlikely be able to benefit from this as you're not technically an employee. You can't makes yourself redundant but yes you can close your business if that's your choice.

The whole point of this is that the Government have looked ta what the biggest expenditure of business tends to be and that is the wage bill and by them reducing this significantly and by using other means such as grants/loans and business rate deferrals businesses can stay afloat. 

I am not technically an employee; I AM AN EMPLOYEE, as I have attested to.!!!

Why can't I make myself redundant??? I would be due quite a lot of statutory redundancy pay, as would my staff, but we have the reserves to fund that if necessary.

Again, please don't tell me how to run my business that I have successfully run for the last 20 years. I think I know how to do it better than you do.

nickologjam

The situation is not clear and Directors have been deemed both employees or self employed in various situations.

It seems likely that the legal definition will be irrelevant as the details of the schemes as announced and who they encompass will be what matters so we are all just guessing at present.

As the Furlough for employees scheme still has no detail I doubt we will find definitive answers regarding the help for self employed this evening so we all need some more patience I'm afraid.

Luvoj

nickologjam said:

The situation is not clear and Directors have been deemed both employees or self employed in various situations.

Do you have any examples where a company director is classed as self employed carrying out that role as company director?
(they may be self employed as far as other roles thay may have are concerned)

I don't think I ever recall being classed as self employed, not in the 20 years I have run our business. Not for personal loans, credit cards, residential mortgage, etc. HMRC certainly consider me to be an employee of my company.

LilElvis

Luvoj said:

neilmcl said:

Luvoj said:

Under the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, all UK employers with a PAYE scheme will be able to access support to continue paying part of their employees’ salary for those that would otherwise have been laid off during this crisis.

This applies to employees who have been asked to stop working, but who are being kept on the pay roll, otherwise described as ‘furloughed workers’. HMRC will reimburse 80% of their wages, up to £2,500 per month. This is to safeguard workers from being made redundant.

If I am unable to access the scheme, I will make myself redundant. That will also mean winding up the business, thereby making my 3 employees also redundant.

I can assure you I will move heaven & earth to prevent that happening to any of us.

We're well aware of what the scheme does but that doesn't take away from the fact that you will unlikely be able to benefit from this as you're not technically an employee. You can't makes yourself redundant but yes you can close your business if that's your choice.

The whole point of this is that the Government have looked ta what the biggest expenditure of business tends to be and that is the wage bill and by them reducing this significantly and by using other means such as grants/loans and business rate deferrals businesses can stay afloat. 

I am not technically an employee; I AM AN EMPLOYEE, as I have attested to.!!!

Why can't I make myself redundant??? I would be due quite a lot of statutory redundancy pay, as would my staff, but we have the reserves to fund that if necessary.

Again, please don't tell me how to run my business that I have successfully run for the last 20 years. I think I know how to do it better than you do.

But you are not an employee in the same way that your staff are. You are both employee and employer. You - unlike other staff - get to set your own rate of pay, something which not even the CEOs of FTSE companies get to do. As both director and shareholder you get to unilaterally decide how much should be paid in dividends, and then receive it (saving significant amounts of tax in the process).

If you wish to pursue the concept of making yourself redundant then you need to speak to your accountant and possibly also HMRC as the £30,000 tax free allowance may not apply to you. 

If your company has, as you say, a reasonable level of reserves then why not just grant yourself a dividend?

nickologjam

Luvoj said:

nickologjam said:

The situation is not clear and Directors have been deemed both employees or self employed in various situations.

Do you have any examples where a company director is classed as self employed carrying out that role as company director?
(they may be self employed as far as other roles thay may have are concerned)

I don't think I ever recall being classed as self employed, not in the 20 years I have run our business. Not for personal loans, credit cards, residential mortgage, etc. HMRC certainly consider me to be an employee of my company.

Most mortgage lenders view Directors as self employed for proof of income purposes.

Also the case of Nesbitt and Nesbitt v Secretary of State for Trade and Industry ruled that the directors of the company were not Employees.

For what its worth I’m a director and consider myself to be an employee as I’m paid via PAYE. I certainly hope this is the case for the purposes of employee retention as my industry has been decimated.

patch1969

Luvoj said:

nickologjam said:

The situation is not clear and Directors have been deemed both employees or self employed in various situations.

Do you have any examples where a company director is classed as self employed carrying out that role as company director?
(they may be self employed as far as other roles thay may have are concerned)

I don't think I ever recall being classed as self employed, not in the 20 years I have run our business. Not for personal loans, credit cards, residential mortgage, etc. HMRC certainly consider me to be an employee of my company.

On correspondance to my ltd company from HMRC I have an employee reference number, hence I am an employee