Possible fraudulent EPC provided by landlord - what can we do?

pinkshoes

Why not write to the landlord and ask for the certificate showing the insulation was done?

If he can’t provide it, ask for the name of the company that did it.

If he still can’t, tell him you want your tenancy ending early so you can move otherwise you will report him.

AdrianC

lucyt87 said:

The lower tariff made little difference to our electricity bills

Umm, you do know how electricity bills work...?
(Consumption in kWh x price per kWh) + standing charge
Use the same amount of electricity, but pay less for it, and your bill is going to be a lot lower.

You said you were using £400/mo at 23.5p/kWh. Let's assume £0 standing charge. So that's 1,700kWh/mo.
You've switched to a tariff that's 16p. That's £272. For that to be roughly the same, you'd be paying north of £4/day in standing charge, which is clearly ludicrous.
Somebody in that thread pointed you to a tariff of 12.1p/kWh plus 13.3p/day. That would be just under £210 for that same 1,700kWh consumption.

I’m here trying to defend my rights by property regulations TODAY

The legislation says that a property must have an EPC of E or above to be lettable, legally, except in certain circumstances.
The landlord has an EPC that says D. You believe it fraudulent. You may or may not be right - but you cannot prove that. All you can say with any certainty is that the assumptions the assessor made at the time were incorrect.

I will be getting our own EPC

Feel free to throw good money after bad. and bringing this up with the previous assessor...who should point-blank refuse to talk to you about the previous assessment, simply because you aren't his client. and the landlord. Never mentioned anything about court. I think you've pretty much already established your landlord doesn't much care, right?
So what do you think raising it again is going to achieve?

Since the answer is inevitably "nothing bar raising everybody's blood pressure", what do you think your next step towards compensation should be, except a small claim through the court system?

Look, it's very simple. There is one quick, cheap, and easy way to reduce your electricity bill and make heating your home easier. It is entirely in your hands... Why are you insisting that's an unthinkable option?

babyblade41

Have to agree with everything above.. You won't get compensation simple as that ..at 8 months pregnant and now in March you are through the worst of the weather and have found a cheaper supplier.

You  would have to quantify any loss through someone else failure which would be extremely hard to do and  very stressful...believe me I've been going through small claims for 13 months after winning the original case but still isn't over , with a new born I hardly think this is what you need.

Just find somewhere new  ready for next winter and move on, look forward to the happy arrival and find a better property to rent 

NewShadow

lucyt87 said:
The lower tariff made little difference to our electricity bills, as I’ve already stated. The original energy supplier warned me that would be the case. 

Look I’ve had a few helpful advices on this forum, but mostly it’s just become more apparent than ever that England needed some sort of Revolution like the French, and why Monty Python constantly took the !!!!!! out of English people boasting and comparing with each other about who had it worse off. I am not interested what other people are willing to put up now or 50 years ago, and I am not here saying I’ve had it worse than anyone else and I’m suffering - I’m here trying to defend my rights by property regulations TODAY and hoped to get advice on the best course of action. I thought that’s why a forum like this existed. 

I will be getting our own EPC and bringing this up with the previous assessor and the landlord. Never mentioned anything about court. 

What's becoming apparent is that you are angry but ignorant of the facts of your situation. 

1. If your high electricity bills have been caused by the amount of electricity you have been required to use to heat your home then a lower tariff will mean you pay less for the same amount of electricity - a 50% cheaper tariff will result in 50% cheaper bills... it's basic maths.

2. You have been referring to guidance - not regulations... guidance does not result in legal liability

3. You don't have any regulatory rights relating to minimum temperatures or minimum standards of heating - it's legal for a landlord to rent a property with no form of heating at all and for the tenants to be required to purchase and use electric heaters at their own expense 

4. You are claiming the EPC is fraudulent, rather than incorrect - so the onus is on you to prove that... 

5. You are claiming the landlord is complicit in the fraud, rather than misled - so the onus is on you to prove that... 

6. Even if the landlord and assessor have committed fraud, and you can prove it - that doesn't entitle you to compensation, it means they'll be punished by the courts as set out in the relevant statute 

7. You are saying you want compensation - and the only body able to order compensation is the Courts... hence people talking about you needing to sue

8. In order to claim compensation, you will need to evidence:
- you suffered a loss, hence reference to a lack of pertinent regulations;
- that you took all reasonable steps to mitigate your loss, hence reference to your tariff; and,
- that the a third party is legally liable for your loss, see points 4 and 5...  

lucyt87

I am aware of how electricity bills work. The lower tariff reduced the bills somewhat, but they’re still far too high. Installing our own infrared heater that costs a third of the cost to run and being on the cheapest tariff reduced our monthly bills from over £400 to over £300. As I keep saying (and the original EPC which rated this place a G aligns with this) : The inherent problem is the structure and to a lesser degree the heaters, not the tariff, hence why I said £300–£400 monthly bills over winter. This is still far too high for a one bedroom flat that cannot be heated to minimum temperatures as outlined by WHO and housing guidelines. If other people wish to freeze and pay electricity bills 3 times what they should be without complaint as if it’s some badge of honour then, please do that. But can we just accept in this particular instance that it’s not the tariff, or do I need to clarify further, like for example we were away for a week in December otherwise the bill may be have been closer to £500. The point is, either way this is too high and it’s not the tariff I’m concerned with, nor did I raise it in this thread. The lower tariff can minimise our energy outgoings, sure, but I started this thread specifically about an EPC query, which has caused inconveniences than go beyond financial losses. 

Yes the legislation says landlords have to provide an EPC of E or above, but legislation also says you can’t obtain EPC’s fraudulently and assessors cannot assume things that can’t be seen (like wall insulation) without providing evidence. The assessor who did the more recent EPC has already spoken to me, twice - yes he assumed the wall insulation. I don’t think he ever came into the flat, either. Whether he assumed this based on information provided by the landlord, I’m yet to find out. If he’s going to make an assumption that hinges on the flat becoming rentable, and this assumption deviates from how it was previously assumed and the period it was built, then yes he absolutely needs to defend it. And if the landlord deliberately misled the assessor in order to obtain an EPC that allowed this flat to be rented without any improvements, then this is also a problem. Why else do regulations and laws like this exist? 

We are moving out as soon as we practically can and I’m not looking for a resolution in this flat, and I never said I was. Only last week we found out proper lead flashing was stolen off the roof from the previous tenant here, and instead of replacing it the landlords used a temporary rubber piece to save on costs which they knew would only last a few months. Our landlords are apparently notorious for cutting corners and pushing inconveniences and costs onto tenants - and the best part is, they’re a charity who lease out properties specifically to artists on low income. I am utterly bemused as to why so many people in the UK and on forums such as these are so determined to defend landlords to the hilt? Yes we could just cut our losses and move, which we will be doing, and what then- some other poor tenant with less money than we have will move in here based on things like the EPC rating of D and have these inconveniences and costs pushed onto them instead? Attitudes like “just cut your losses and move on” are exactly why these things never change, and moving in itself is a huge hassle, pregnant or not. 

I started this thread regarding an EPC that was provided to us that I suspect was fraudulently obtained, and with good reason. We have the G rated certificate, and now we know there’s no wall insulation. I thought that’s a fair amount of evidence. I asked which course of action we may be able to take in terms of the EPC only. I’m not interested in advice about how to save money or make this flat more habitable, it’s more than that: it’s the inconveniences they’ve inflicted on us both monetary and otherwise by providing an EPC that is manifestly and deliberately wrong, and which will be inflicted on others and the next people in this flat. 

Mutton_Geoff

lucyt87 said:

I am aware of how electricity bills work ..

Installing our own infrared heater that costs a third of the cost to run ..

You are aware how electricity bills work, but may not be aware how electric heating works. Electric heaters are almost 100% efficicient so if your IR heater is 1/3rd of the cost to run, it means it's consuming 1/3rd of the electricity which is putting 1/3rd of the energy into your home. IR might make you feel warm standing in front of it, but it's going to rubbish at heating the rest of the space.

The contrast between feeling warm (standing in front of an IR heater) and feeling cold (moving out of close line of sight of the heater) is greater. Low background heating (eg storage heaters on economy 7 rate) may end up being cheaper for comfort factor than a few hundred watts from an IR heater.

High ceilings, "notorious" landlord, poor state of repair? Weren't there enough clues before you signed and agreed to move into the property?

lincroft1710

Just because posters on this forum are not giving you the answers you are expecting doesn't mean they are on the side of landlords. They are just pointing out the impracticality of your intended courses of action. The reason why you are kepy being told to move is that there is nothing in law to compel the landlord to improve your flat and you have no way of proving the current EPC is fraudulent.

NewShadow

lucyt87 said:

1. ...Installing our own infrared heater  

* Just noticed this... please say you had permission to 'install'  heating - or your landlord can take the cost to remove your 'improvements' from your deposit.  

2. This is still far too high for a one bedroom flat...  

* According to which law or regulations...? Oh, you mean in your opinion? You may be correct - but the law does not state the landlord has to provide ANY heating, never mind 'affordable' heating...

3. If other people wish to freeze and pay electricity bills 3 times what they should be without complaint  

*Who's saying don't complain? You've been advised to report it to the regulator. You've also been advised that this won't force your landlord to do anything, so you should still be making preparations to move.

4. which has caused inconveniences that go beyond financial losses.  

*Such as? Generally only losses which can be ascribed a quantifiable monitory value are subject to compensation and even then, only if liability is demonstrated.

5. but legislation also says you can’t obtain EPC’s fraudulently and assessors cannot assume things that can’t be seen (like wall insulation) without providing evidence.  

*Which, if you can prove, could get the assessor and landlord into trouble... probably a fine and result in the assessor losing their licence - but not secure you any 'compensation' or force the landlord to add cheaper heating... so again - the 'what can we do' is... provide evidence at your cost and report them to the regulator

6. If he’s going to make an assumption that hinges on the flat becoming rentable, and this assumption deviates from how it was previously assumed and the period it was built, then yes he absolutely needs to defend it. 

*Yes, he may need to defend his decision - but not to you... 

7. And if the landlord deliberately misled the assessor in order to obtain an EPC that allowed this flat to be rented without any improvements, then this is also a problem. 

*which again means either reporting the issue to the regulator or court action - you're making a serious accusation and therefore will be required to provide proof of intent to mislead... which you say you don't have - yet... , 

8. We are moving out as soon as we practically can and I’m not looking for a resolution in this flat, and I never said I was. 

So... you didn't say you wanted compensation?

Hope that's helpful in figuring out 'what you can do'

Robbo66

lucyt87 said:

The lower tariff made little difference to our electricity bills, as I’ve already stated. The original energy supplier warned me that would be the case. 

Look I’ve had a few helpful advices on this forum, but mostly it’s just become more apparent than ever that England needed some sort of Revolution like the French, and why Monty Python constantly took the !!!!!! out of English people boasting and comparing with each other about who had it worse off. I am not interested what other people are willing to put up now or 50 years ago, and I am not here saying I’ve had it worse than anyone else and I’m suffering - I’m here trying to defend my rights by property regulations TODAY and hoped to get advice on the best course of action. I thought that’s why a forum like this existed. 

I will be getting our own EPC and bringing this up with the previous assessor and the landlord. Never mentioned anything about court. 

The revolution already exists, you can move somewhere better, you've already been given a course of action - move.
Why waste your time, energy and money getting your own EPC, move somewhere better. Plenty of good quality rentals out there and given that fees are no longer permitted easy to obtain.

greatcrested

Nothing more to add. You've asked. Posters have responded. You make your decision.

But please come back in a few days, a month whenever to tell us whether

* the landlord made any improvements

* the EPC assessor was found guilty of fraud

* you moved, and/or

* you received compensation

etc

Best of luck wih the housing, and the baby.