Speeding ticket advise - Police not providing photographic evidence

andyat2002

So a few weeks ago I received a letter stating that my vehicle was speeding (60 in a variable speed camera zone where the cameras were apparently 50).  They asked me to confirm who the drive was.  First time I had received one of these and there was no comment regarding requesting photographic evidence and I presumed I would request when I actually received the fine.  I (rather naively in hindsight) returned the letter confirming I was the driver (there was no confirmation of admission of guilt just that I was the driver).

I received the fine through a couple of days ago.  I tried to request photographic evidence (it says to call up but its a prerecorded message which goes round in a loop) so I emailed them.  They have responded to my email and said they would not provide photographic evidence as I had admitted guilt (I have checked the wording of the original letter, I do no such thing I just confirm I'm driving).  I responded querying this and they reiterated there response and said they would not respond to any further communication.  

They have offered me a speed awareness course but I wanted to check that I was actually speeding (I have no memory of the specific camera and the way the variance speed cameras work (and my speed) my expectation is that it changed momentarily before I went through).  My only option if I wish to see the photographic evidence is to go to court and I would lose my option for the speed awareness course.  It feels grossly unfair.  Any ideas?

soolin

That is the usual process, they do not supply evidence unless you go to court. If you do that then you lose the option of the course, plus the fines are heavier. 

It is very unusual for the system to be wrong though but if you want more detailed advice try registering on this site
http://forums.pepipoo.com/

be warned though, don’t try registering with a Hotmail address, the system doesn’t like it.

photome

If you have confirmed that you were the driver at the given time and date why would they need to provide a photo, if they provided a photo and the driver isn’t you , wouldnt you be in more bother for not telling the truth

AdrianC

andyat2002 said:

So a few weeks ago I received a letter stating that my vehicle was speeding (60 in a variable speed camera zone where the cameras were apparently 50).  They asked me to confirm who the drive was.  First time I had received one of these and there was no comment regarding requesting photographic evidence and I presumed I would request when I actually received the fine.  I (rather naively in hindsight) returned the letter confirming I was the driver (there was no confirmation of admission of guilt just that I was the driver).

This isn't a parking enforcement invoice. You do not muck about playing loophole games with a police s172 request. Not unless you want six points for failure to identify...

Simple question: WERE you driving? If not, then you needed to have told them who you believe was. "Umm, wasn't me. La la la." is a shortcut to an MS90, and "No idea, mate" is not acceptable, either.

I received the fine through a couple of days ago.

...but then you go on to say they've offered you a course... That is instead of a fine.

I tried to request photographic evidence (it says to call up but its a prerecorded message which goes round in a loop) so I emailed them.  They have responded to my email and said they would not provide photographic evidence as I had admitted guilt (I have checked the wording of the original letter, I do no such thing I just confirm I'm driving).

Well, since there is photographic evidence that the car was exceeding the speed limit, and you already admitted that you were driving that car in that place at that time, then you already have kinda by definition admitted that you are guilty of exceeding the speed limit... No?

You have a straight choice...
You can stick your paw up and accept the course. £90ish, half a day of tea and biccies, you might learn something, and it's not recorded anywhere publicly available. At most one insurance group currently ask, but I believe they may even have given up.
...or...
You can stick your paw up and accept the FPN. Three points, £100.
...or...
You can go to court, where they will produce the evidence, and you will be judged guilty or not guilty based on whether the evidence shows behind reasonable doubt that you were exceeding the speed limit at the time.

Pick one and only one.

They have offered me a speed awareness course

Take it.

...but I wanted to check that I was actually speeding (I have no memory of the specific camera and the way the variance speed cameras work (and my speed) my expectation is that it changed momentarily before I went through).

Nope. There is a 60 second grace period after a limit change on a variable motorway. This has long been the general understanding, but has recently been confirmed in a reply to an FoI request.
https://www.warwickcourier.co.uk/cars/car-news/speeders-get-60-second-grace-period-on-smart-motorway_5e5bde340a456a2378d5e596aa4c4089/

You have "no memory of the specific camera" because they aren't easily visible - they're in the backs of gantries. So how would you know the limit changed just before you went through a camera you didn't see?

My only option if I wish to see the photographic evidence is to go to court and I would lose my option for the speed awareness course.  It feels grossly unfair.  Any ideas?

Everything other going to court is an acceptance of guilt. If you're accepting you're guilty, then you do not need to see the evidence. If you want to see the evidence, then it's because you're disputing your guilt.

Since there is photographic proof that the car was exceeding the speed limit, and you admit to driving it there at that time, there is not much scope for disputing guilt - unless you're going to go down the "But the kit was faulty" line.
Hint: Don't. It wasn't.

ElephantBoy57

AdrianC said:

Since there is photographic proof that the car was exceeding the speed limit, and you admit to driving it there at that time, there is not much scope for disputing guilt - unless you're going to go down the "But the kit was faulty" line.
Hint: Don't. It wasn't.

There would need to be evidence that the speed limit was being displayed to the driver, easy with a static sign.

AdrianC

ElephantBoy57 said:

AdrianC said:

Since there is photographic proof that the car was exceeding the speed limit, and you admit to driving it there at that time, there is not much scope for disputing guilt - unless you're going to go down the "But the kit was faulty" line.
Hint: Don't. It wasn't.

There would need to be evidence that the speed limit was being displayed to the driver, easy with a static sign.

Easily provided with smart motorway variable limits.

TooManyPoints

Indeed. Most of the more modern cameras installed on Smart Motorways take a simultaneous photo of the speed limit displayed on the gantry as it captures the vehicle.

As mentioned, they have no obligation to provide evidence at this stage. Should you be unfortunate enough to be caught again you could ask for "photographs to help identify the driver" before you return the S172 notice naming the driver. They rarely help to do that but usually confirm it was your car and may also give the speed reading. If you ask for "evidence" there is a possibility they will believe you are contesting the matter and will move straight to court action rather than offering a Fixed Penalty of a course.

The idea of a Fixed Penalty or a course is that you must accept the allegation as it stands and receive a considerably more lenient penalty. If you query any aspect of the matter it will simply be referred to court where the penalty, even with an early guilty plea, will be considerably higher. 

One thing to bear in mind if you do accept the course is that you can only do one of the same type (there are three) within three years of this one (the dates of the offences being used to calculate the three years). They are usually offered up to (Limit+10%+9mph) but not at all in Scotland.

Mercdriver

Oh and don't assume that when there is no lit speed limit on the gantry that the cameras are switched off.  They are generally set to enforce the NSL (at 10%+1mph).