How do you know if the PCN is POFA compliant? All templates include the assumption they aren't...

Tylewcha

So I'm trying to use a template (probably an Edna_Basher one) for my lease car postal-only PCN from Civil Enforcement. Checking the Newbie thread, the very bottom lease car section only talks about the included templates being for windscreen PCN's. Plus, they all seem to include reference to the PCN being non-POFA compliant. I've been trying to read through the multiple subsections of the actual definition repeatedly but it's not very accessible. So my questions are;

• Which template is the first response to a PCC for postal-only PCN's for a lease car?
• What simple list do you use to check if a PCN is non-POFA compliant, so people know whether or not to use that argument in their initial appeal to the PCC? (I know that people have commented that they're 'yet to see a compliant one', but on the off chance it was compliant, it kinda ruins your argument to be shown as incorrect)
• If the Notice to Driver/Hirer (I'm not naming the driver) doesn't make a mention of POFA, can you still say 'you've failed to be POFA compliant'?

Redx

one of the ones by edna basher , suitably adapted if required

if the pcn is in your own name and doesnt have the hire or lease docs required by POFA, its not compliant, so due to them rarely if ever having those docs with them , its non compliant in almost every case (8 years since pofa and still they dont get it right)

therefore, you check the relevant section of POFA for compliance in all aspects, including the additional docs , plus if in doubt assert they are non compliant and make them prove otherwise (assume they failed and say so, unless they have passed all pofa points successfully, which I dont think has ever happened in 8 years)

its their job to prove compliance , or fail accordingly , your job is just to assert non compliance etc, be it true or untrue , be it about hire or lease docs , timescales , wording , whatever, POFA tells you and them what has to be done for compliance, so not us , but POFA

Their PCN must make mention of trying to comply with POFA in order to be POFA compliant, most companies dont bother with POFA because they cannot comply

Umkomaas

What simple list do you use to check if a PCN is non-POFA compliant, so people know whether or not to use that argument in their initial appeal to the PCC? 

Try this to see if it helps:

https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

MistyZ

Sometimes a lot of thought is required.  But not necessarily with hire cars.  That's because the PPCs rarely if ever send the Hirer the documents specified in the PoFA Schedule 4, paragraph 13.  Paragraph 14 makes this clear:

'the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.

(2)The conditions are that—

(a)

the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;'

Just pore over paragraphs 13 & 14 of the PoFA.  Appeals largely rely on that.  The success rate is very high.  

Fruitcake

As above, start with one of the edna basher templates. There are three but one is for Fleet Car Managers so the one you want will be one of the other two.

Compare the relevant sections of the PoFA line by line with the NTH. There is a link to the PoFA in the NEWBIES or it can easily be found using a search engine of your choice.

Have they met the timescales?
Have they included the mandatory documents?
Is there wording in the PoFA that isn't in the NTH?

Etcetera.

Just make sure that the driver is never identified.

D_P_Dance

In the case of an NTD/NTK it is the wording that is compliant.  You check the wording on the document you have been sent with that of the POFA, there are no easy fixes.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Tylewcha

Thanks Redx, MistyZ, Fruitcake, that makes it easier - assume they're not compliant, burden of proof is on them, and templates are for postal or windscreen PCN's despite the Newbie-thread description. I never received a NtK; a letter only titled PCN was sent to the lease. And no, I wasn't sent any documents by the PCC beyond the 'NtD/H'. They sneakily call it a 'Notice to Driver/Hirer' so I'm confirming as the hirer, or 'keeper for the purposes..' as the template says, and adding - 'This is in no way an admission of who was driving the vehicle and no assumptions can be drawn.' Seem ok?

D_P_Dance, thanks, I'm thinking of adding a line to the appeal that I'll complain to the MP if the PCC doesn't cancel.

Umkomaas - that page is helpful, but it also recommends not to tell the PCC that they've failed PoFA until close to some deadline so they can't backtrack and be compliant in time? I've not seen that same advice in this forum?

Alleged incident was the 12th, initial PCN to lease was 16th (lease sent me a photocopy, dated 23rd), NtD/H (so PCN re-issue) is 7th. So it seems they're compliant time-wise but I don't want to give them a chance to rectify.

Umkomaas

Umkomaas - that page is helpful, but it also recommends not to tell the PCC that they've failed PoFA until close to some deadline so they can't backtrack and be compliant in time? I've not seen that same advice in this forum?

There will never be absolute congruity between every paragraph of every forum dealing with this stuff. With a postal notice to keeper/hirer after the lease company has transferred liability, the PPC have shot their bolt, they cannot have another go in trying to recover their errors. If there are no copies of hire agreement and signed hire documents, then keeper liability has passed them by.  The hirer cannot be held liable, provided there are no daft moves in terms of admitting being the driver. 

Tylewcha

Umkomaas - thanks for the clarification. I wasn't expecting every thread to mention this deadline, just surprised because I've fully read many threads here to try and understand the topic and haven't seen a single one yet give advice to 'hold off' on an appeal on those grounds. Guess I've just missed those that do. But good to know that the PCC have to be fully compliant on the first instance, thanks.
Reading PoFA has helped when you get it. Seems that the PCC has 21 days after being told hirer details by the lease company to send the hirer everything. So basing it off my letter from the lease (assuming they did it the same day) and adding the extra 2 working days grace period, those 21 days have lapsed anyway.

Umkomaas

And their biggest slayer is the lack of the essential paperwork that needs to be supplied by the hire/lease company - something we have never seen produced with any NtH. In these cases it's only the hirer who can hand this on a plate to the PPC by identifying the driver, in which case, PoFA is in the bin.

Coupon-mad

I wasn't sent any documents by the PPC beyond the 'NtD/H'.

Then it is not compliant, because a NTH must, as others have said.  Easier to spot than you were thinking, and we say 'we've yet to see a compliant one' because AFAIK, no PPC encloses any attachments at all to a NTH.  That's what we mean.

No need to pore over the wording or dates, once it is too late for them to put this right (BTW, they won't bother, they will cancel and move onto less well informed victims because it is a numbers game).