PCM (UK) Ltd PCN in private residential carpark - Renting tenant

maverick278

Hello wise ones,

I am now staring down the barrel of not 1, but 4 PCNs from PCM UK Ltd.

Backstory:

We recently moved to an apartment complex in July 2019 where PCM UK was operating already. Sadly, on one of the days that the car was parked, the permit slid underneath the windscreen partially obscuring it. Since the car was not moved for a week after that, PCM UK happily slapped me with 4 PCNs for the so called breach. The remaining 3 days, there was too much frost on the windscreen for them to validate the permit and hence I was spared (my guess)

All of the above happened in Nov 2019. Since then, I duly appealed to them - which of course was duly rejected as is their wont citing reasons why I should be displaying a valid permit at all times etc. Silly me, I was arguing mitigating circumstances thinking PCM UK is here to protect residents from external trespassers, and therefore should be open to such an argument. The first appeal was rejected stating I was using a photocopy of the permit, which PCM have redacted since then stating it was an administrative error and that the real reason for the notices was indeed the obscured display. This happened once I reached out to my agents who indeed had given me this permit. When the agents spoke to PCM, they rolled back their story and started this new story around incorrect display. My rental agreement does not cover parking spaces and I have not signed up anywhere for my own space to be policed by another company. However, after reading multiple threads here, I understand this is something I can't argue.

Their website does not need me to declare who the driver was and only takes in contact names. I have made it clear that I am the RK and will not name the driver ever. Eventually I stumbled upon this forum, armed myself with all the information from the Newbies thread and went back with some good worded arguments about how I intend to go about this.I also raised a complaint with the estate management company, and following it up as I have made this as a resident harassment now.

I received a letter from PCM last week now offering me to pay £36/PCN = £144 in total but this is a limited time offer only :rotfl: They also have cited some HMRC case to prove their locus standi, as I have raised the legality of this whole thing and have asked to show me proof of contractual existence amongst all parties.

I intend to now go back to them with a response as I have already told them I intend to ignore their correspondence and any other debt collectors' correspondence as well. So the question is, do I still have a chance to turn this around? If it were just 1 ticket, I would gladly pay £36 for all the time it will take for me to take this up. However, I don't want to pay £144 for this!

My complaint covered the following
1) Legality of the tickets
2) That I am a resident of the said property
3) Counter claim of trespass and harassment
4) Complaint to the MP

I know this is preliminary - but I am sure they will take me to court as they stand to gain £400 in total which makes me a juicy target. But I want to know if I am doing everything I can to maximise the outcome in my favour and if there is anything else I may be missing?

Any pointers would be deeply appreciated.

The_Deep

Read this,

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]what does your lease/AST say about parking? Does it mention the need to display a permit? If not then it may take primacy over the self serving TnC of the scammer, and interfere with your lawful right to “quiet enjoyment” of your property, possible an offence under The Landlord and Tenants Acts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and in some cases, cancellation.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT]

Fruitcake

If your lease/AST does not mention parking/permits/parking charges/court, then I don't see how a third party scammer can add new Ts and Cs to that contract.
Your contract is silent on parking and cannot be changed without your consent.
Have a look at the relevant parts of the Landlord and Tenant Act as well as other UK.Gov sites where this is stipulated.

What happened when you complained to the landowner/MA?

Have you complained to your MP yet about this unregulated scam?

When are you moving out?

maverick278

Dear all,

This is the email exchange I have had with the Managing agents. There is a long thread of emails, but this is where they are concluding who is responsible for letting PCM run amok in this estate.

"I understand that PCM have liaised/written to you now, if you can confirm?
The Freeholder/land owner who is Berkeley Homes instructs us to employ PCM to manage the parking, this is to allow us to uphold the covenants for the estate."

For which I have now responded as below
"They have indeed demanded money, threatening debt collection and legal action against a resident of your estate for parking on the designated parking bay that will be part of the lease agreement for this flat. So the primacy of the lease will supersede any primacy of contract that PCM is intending to establish with me. So I am not sure why you are colluding with bottom feeders (just read up about PCM UK as an organisation) into harassing the residents of the estate you are managing? Is this the precedence you intend to set?

I understand you want to maintain civility in parking - but it should not come at the expense of the well-being of your estate's residents. Despite having a valid parking permit, PCM intends to fleece me on a minor technicality. Can you confirm that you are in agreement with this entire line of harassment by them? Are you happy for them to proceed in the way they have so far?

In the recent letter received, they are citing administration error for calling out my permit as a photocopy - and have since changed tack about the nature of its placement on the dashboard after JNP reached out to them stating that it is indeed a valid permit and I am the current resident of the said property. Can you see how they are systematically trying to profit from this? So I just want to confirm that you are in agreement of such malpractices so that I can decide on how to bring justice to myself against such continued harassment that me and my family are facing on a weekly basis as they keep sending some threats or the other (I have retained all their correspondence which is around 20 so far).

Thank you for confirming that it is your organisation who have employed these ex-clamping scamming agencies to harass the residents of this estate. I would now have to name you as part of my witness statement (even if you are hostile) to produce the full contract that you have with the land owner, PCM and yourselves which essentially gives PCM such prohibitive powers which essentially clashes with the lease of this flat, and the rental agreement that I have in place for this property.

I am willing to drop this matter right here, if these ridiculous PCNs are cancelled and myself and my family are left alone. If not, I intend to take this up with full force and will determine my legal recourse if it comes to that."

Regarding complaining to my MP - do I simply write an email to him directly citing the legislation?

Thank you for your responses thus far.

Coupon-mad

My rental agreement does not cover parking spaces and I have not signed up anywhere for my own space to be policed by another company. However, after reading multiple threads here, I understand this is something I can't argue.

Wrong, but it makes it harder if PCM were there first AND you a re said to have 'acquiesced' to the permit scheme, thereby accepting the scam, in the eyes of some Judges. I would never have let any of my sprogs rent there, but that's because they know to check for PPC scammers and never view such properties, even in London.

Anyhoo, this is interesting:

I received a letter from PCM last week now offering me to pay £36/PCN = £144 in total but this is a limited time offer only

That's quite a low 'offer'. I wonder why, because the landowner put pressure on them? Up to you, but it gets my goat to think of anyone paying any PPC a 3 figure sum and you seem to be the same!

Nicely done, so far:

Thank you for confirming that it is your organisation who have employed these ex-clamping scamming agencies to harass the residents of this estate. I would now have to name you as part of my witness statement (even if you are hostile) to produce the full contract that you have with the land owner, PCM and yourselves which essentially gives PCM such prohibitive powers which essentially clashes with the lease of this flat, and the rental agreement that I have in place for this property.

I am willing to drop this matter right here, if these ridiculous PCNs are cancelled and myself and my family are left alone. If not, I intend to take this up with full force and will determine my legal recourse if it comes to that."

Regarding complaining to my MP - do I simply write an email to him directly citing the legislation?

I'd just forward that email trail and say how horrified you are that ex-clampers like PCM (who were outed on Watchdog years ago as 'making it up most of the time'* are still marauding around cars and ripping off people who have more legal interests, easements and rights to be in the car park than PCM do.


* Yes, this was identified beyond doubt by those in the know, as PCM on Watchdog:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-independent-appeal-service-kangaroo.html

maverick278

Thank you very much for weighing in Coupon-mad. Lesson learnt about not renting anywhere these scammers operate! This started way back in November 2019, and after my initial exchanges for a peaceful process, I started reading about them - only after reading the forums and newbie threads here, I got myself educated on this widespread scam. I had written a complaint to my estate agents citing Landowner-tenant agreement breaches of quiet living and another company operating on private lands for commercial gains which contravenes with 2 of the agreement clauses. Equally, I complained to the estate management company about these unlawful practices and the ongoing harassment.

PCM were threatening with £640 for 4 tickets not so long ago, then I fought back with POFA 2012, and BPA code violations and I think the Estate management company would have spoken to PCM to reduce the fines from £640 to £144. Up until this point, I did not open my own thread here. Only after I have established a stance with PCM, I wanted to get some advise to ensure that I am not faltering anywhere.

I will include the letter I received from PCM citing some HMRC case as to their locus standi. I also denied them my consent to share my private details to another third party debt collection agency - citing DPR, but apparently that is not going to stick as they are stating that GDPR does not apply here.

I have now recovered 3 threads from the forum to go back to them with, and also provide enough case studies to refute their arguments and go back to them with my response, but wanted to open my thread here to go back with a measured response to lay the foundation for my legal defense later.

I have also waived off my IAS appeals procedure and rejected their offer to do so outright. I did not know they don't offer POPLA owing to some allegiance to a trade association, although I wrote back asking for POPLA as the only acceptable independent arbiter. All this happened before I stumbled onto this website! But I now realise IAS is a sham and I did not lose much by waiving off their appeals procedure.

Thank you very much for providing me with your expert guidance. I do not intend to pay a penny to these scammers - worst case, I will have to pay £400 post my CCJ - I am happy to do so, but I do not want to give in without a fight!

maverick278

Also, the one who parked here was my partner - and she initially handled this herself and have written to PCM appealing in first person, thinking that they will be partial to residents. Only when they rejected her appeals, she let me in on this. So I have not argued driver/keeper angle with PCM at all. I do not know if this will be problematic in my defense.

The_Deep

Refer them to this


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6092144/rogue-traders-cpm-exposed-on-bbc-south-today

nosferatu1001

Nope, it wont be problematic, as its hard for residents to use POFA in court anyway

Mention to the MA that should their agent go to court, you will be counterclaiming against their agent AND enjoiing the MA as a co-defendant for harassment, breach of DPA etc by their agent. they are fully liable for the actions of their agent in this matter. You require a list of dates when <name acompany officer of the MA> cannot attend court in the next 6 months.

Fruitcake

Where PoFA is being used as a defence then it is advisable not to identify the driver. However, in an "own space" case it is often an advantage as you can say to a judge, this is my lease/my parking space etcetera.

maverick278

Also I heard Bargepole had defended residents in High Wycombe. I too am a resident in High Wycombe. Are there any references to those cases and how he defended and won those please?