buying land, boundary not defined, and land been put into a new title from original

Frankbrek

Hi All

Im looking at a plot of registered land, Which is a very good price.

I spoke with the neighbours on both sides and discovered the following information.

1/ On one side there is no defined boundaries, which the neighbour made a point of, but there are temporary lowgrade animal fencing.
1a/ Should the seller define these boundaries before selling the land?
1b/ can they sell land without defining the boundaries?


2/ On the other side, the neighbour informed me, he had previously owned a comparatively small piece at the back of the land which i'm looking at, Of which he sold to the present owner.

Ive looked into this and it appears the small piece of land was taken out of the neighbours recently registered title (neighbour inherited his property and then made first registration) .
When this piece of land was sold as mentioned came out of neighbours title and given a new title.
Now the owner of the land im looking at, subsequently took his larger parcel of land which im looking at, and amalgamated the large land by putting it into the small piece of lands title.

But im aware that the larger piece of land had been registered a lot of years ago, before the small piece of land was brought, but because the large piece of land has been put into the tiny parcel of lands title, it makes it appear that it was only first registered much more recently than it actually was, and I cant find the old title number.

Its like its past didn't exist


Does this sound strange?

3/ Now touching upon point 2, I was out for drinks and was chatting to random person who happened to be a developer, briefly spoke about it, and he mentioned from what memory serves me, about something called Land ownership issues, countenance to wipe the countenance records and few other things i cant remember,

So hoping someone may have a point of view on this, I was hoping as a project buy land and self build.

thanks in advance

davidmcn

Frankbrek wrote: »

1a/ Should the seller define these boundaries before selling the land?
1b/ can they sell land without defining the boundaries?

Aren't those the same question? The answer is no, anyway. Perfectly normal for a legal boundary not to be marked with anything physical on the ground (think front gardens of semi-detached houses with nothing demarcating one lawn from the other). Is there anything suggesting that the proprietors are occupying land in a way which is different from the boundaries shown on the title?

Does this sound strange?

No. Why would it be of concern? The point of the Land Registry is to show the current position, not everything which has historically happened to the land.

3/ Now touching upon point 2, I was out for drinks and was chatting to random person who happened to be a developer, briefly spoke about it, and he mentioned from what memory serves me, about something called Land ownership issues, countenance to wipe the countenance records and few other things i cant remember,

Blimey, how many drinks did you have? Don't know what you mean by "countenance records". Maybe it was "covenants"? All a bit vague anyway. Have you checked what the title says other than the boundaries? i.e. are there are any covenants affecting it?

G_M

Frankbrek wrote: »

Im looking at a plot of registered land, Which is a very good price.
OK. So what you are buying is whatever is included in the registered Title & Plan.

I spoke with the neighbours on both sides and discovered the following information.

1/ On one side there is no defined boundaries, which the neighbour made a point of, but there are temporary lowgrade animal fencing.
There's no requirement for physical boundaries to exist. Once you own, if you choose, you can erect a fence along the boundary defined by the registered Plan

1a/ Should the seller define these boundaries before selling the land? They are defined. By the Land Registry Plan.
1b/ can they sell land without defining the boundaries? What do you mean by 'define'? Legally they are defined by the Land Registry Plan.
Physically there is no requirement for a fence or other 'defined' boundary.

2/ On the other side, the neighbour informed me, he had previously owned a comparatively small piece at the back of the land which i'm looking at, Of which he sold to the present owner.
So the Land Registry Title you are buying includes this 'small piece of land' yes?

Ive looked into this and it appears the small piece of land was taken out of the neighbours recently registered title (neighbour inherited his property and then made first registration) . Good. So the neighbour no longer has any ownershipclaim.
When this piece of land was sold as mentioned came out of neighbours title and given a new title. OK
Now the owner of the land im looking at, subsequently took his larger parcel of land which im looking at, and amalgamated the large land by putting it into the small piece of lands title.
OK. So he decided not to own two separate Titles but to amulgamate them into one. Makes life simpler. Makes your purchase simpler too.

But im aware that the larger piece of land had been registered a lot of years ago, before the small piece of land was brought, but because the large piece of land has been put into the tiny parcel of lands title, it makes it appear that it was only first registered much more recently than it actually was, and I cant find the old title number. So what?

The larger piece of land is now included in the Title with the smaller piece of land. You are buying this Title so will own both the larger and the smaller piece of land.

What is the problem?

Its like its past didn't exist The land registry does not show history. It shows current ownership.

Does this sound strange? Not at all.

3/ Now touching upon point 2, I was out for drinks and was chatting to random person who happened to be a developer, briefly spoke about it, and he mentioned from what memory serves me, about something called Land ownership issues, countenance to wipe the countenance records and few other things i cant remember,
Go back to the pub. Drink another 6 pints, and it will all come back to your memory and you can then post your question here sensibly and we will answer it!

So hoping someone may have a point of view on this, I was hoping as a project buy land and self build.

thanks in advance

Whether you can self-build is another issue. Speak to the Planning Dept at the council. They may or may not grant planning permission.

Frankbrek

covenants yes, i don't know why but my phone must have auto-corrected.

Frankbrek

G_M wrote: »

Whether you can self-build is another issue. Speak to the Planning Dept at the council. They may or may not grant planning permission.

Dont know why you had to act like that and say go back to the pub.

Frankbrek

G_M wrote: »

Whether you can self-build is another issue. Speak to the Planning Dept at the council. They may or may not grant planning permission.

Frankbrek wrote: »

Hi All

Im looking at a plot of registered land, Which is a very good price.

I spoke with the neighbours on both sides and discovered the following information.

1/ On one side there is no defined boundaries, which the neighbour made a point of, but there are temporary lowgrade animal fencing.
1a/ Should the seller define these boundaries before selling the land?
1b/ can they sell land without defining the boundaries?


2/ On the other side, the neighbour informed me, he had previously owned a comparatively small piece at the back of the land which i'm looking at, Of which he sold to the present owner.

Ive looked into this and it appears the small piece of land was taken out of the neighbours recently registered title (neighbour inherited his property and then made first registration) .
When this piece of land was sold as mentioned came out of neighbours title and given a new title.
Now the owner of the land im looking at, subsequently took his larger parcel of land which im looking at, and amalgamated the large land by putting it into the small piece of lands title.

But im aware that the larger piece of land had been registered a lot of years ago, before the small piece of land was brought, but because the large piece of land has been put into the tiny parcel of lands title, it makes it appear that it was only first registered much more recently than it actually was, and I cant find the old title number.

Its like its past didn't exist


Does this sound strange?

3/ Now touching upon point 2, I was out for drinks and was chatting to random person who happened to be a developer, briefly spoke about it, and he mentioned from what memory serves me, about something called Land ownership issues, countenance to wipe the countenance records and few other things i cant remember,

So hoping someone may have a point of view on this, I was hoping as a project buy land and self build.

thanks in advance

It had been mentioned yes, covenants was on the piece of land (original title), but as the large land parcel was amalgamated to smaller piece, its taken on that new title.

And as mentioned, someone mentioned something about Land ownership issues, covenants etc.

Was curious as to why would someone not amalgamate a small piece into the larger piece rather than the other way round.

Frankbrek

davidmcn wrote: »

Aren't those the same question? The answer is no, anyway. Perfectly normal for a legal boundary not to be marked with anything physical on the ground (think front gardens of semi-detached houses with nothing demarcating one lawn from the other). Is there anything suggesting that the proprietors are occupying land in a way which is different from the boundaries shown on the title?

No. Why would it be of concern? The point of the Land Registry is to show the current position, not everything which has historically happened to the land.

Blimey, how many drinks did you have? Don't know what you mean by "countenance records". Maybe it was "covenants"? All a bit vague anyway. Have you checked what the title says other than the boundaries? i.e. are there are any covenants affecting it?

One neighbour, who did sell the small piece mentioned the land have covenants on original title.

however as he amalgamated the land into the small piece and its taken that title, that is now the title.

And because of that, you cant get any information on the original piece, as you need to have specific information, i dont know the original title, the neighbour did say he had it ages ago when accessed land registry, and he has come back to say no longer on his computer or emails.

I did even ask land registry who were unhelpful unless i had exact information......


2/ My question relating to boundaries tho was incase land owners each side have tried to come in on the land, hoping not questioned or to do with any adverse possession by them perhaps. this i am assuming tho.

so as you both mentioned you can sell before defining any boundaries, therefor im guessing it would lay with the new owner to do any boundary disputes. and i would be putting current neighbour or neighbours in a position to settle this

Is there a was to get the original owner to do these disputes before buying, either putting a caution on or anything.

As i get a feeling one will be raised due to being fairly open with next door

davidmcn

Frankbrek wrote: »

so as you both mentioned you can sell before defining any boundaries, therefor im guessing it would lay with the new owner to do any boundary disputes. and i would be putting current neighbour or neighbours in a position to settle this

Is there a was to get the original owner to do these disputes before buying, either putting a caution on or anything.

As i get a feeling one will be raised due to being fairly open with next door

What do you mean by "do these disputes" if there aren't any disputes? You want the seller to start an argument about the boundaries?

It's not normal for neighbours to dispute the boundaries, even if there isn't a physical boundary feature. The seller will be asked as part of the standard enquiries to disclose any disputes with the neighbours, and you can rely on the answer.

Frankbrek

davidmcn wrote: »

What do you mean by "do these disputes" if there aren't any disputes? You want the seller to start an argument about the boundaries?

It's not normal for neighbours to dispute the boundaries, even if there isn't a physical boundary feature. The seller will be asked as part of the standard enquiries to disclose any disputes with the neighbours, and you can rely on the answer.

Thats fair enough regards to boundaries, It was only because the neighbour seemed to make a point about the boundary not being defined, and that he actually mentioned his land extends a bit more out from his fence for access to maintain.

Was only because he made a point, i thought they may be either trying to claim some of the land. Or that he was saying this all so that id define the boundaries.

May be hard to grasp what i was getting at tho.

But regards to other part i mention

One neighbour, who did sell the small piece mentioned the land have covenants on original title.

however as he amalgamated the land into the small piece and its taken that title, that is now the title.

And because of that, you cant get any information on the original piece, as you need to have specific information, i dont know the original title, the neighbour did say he had it ages ago when accessed land registry, and he has come back to say no longer on his computer or emails.

I did even ask land registry who were unhelpful unless i had exact information......



If there was covenants on larger piece, and to remove it the buyer purchased the small piece for the intention of amalgamation the large piece into the small piece to rid its history of the title, is that legal or could it be seen as laundering the land if there is such a thing?

Just been a few baffling things thats why asking, its prob more complicated than expressing, as one user here thought i wasnt being sensible on what i was saying, but i being genuine to see if anyone has experienced it.

and if its not covenants but due to land ownership issues, does that mean someone else may have been entitled to the original titled land, and thus to hide its title, created a new piece. because believe me you cannot get info on that original piece of land, its vanished unless you already obtained it before amalgamation

davidmcn

It will probably be easier if you just have a chat with your solicitor about this. It sounds like you're reading too much into things which are actually benign.

G_M

As explaied,the LR do not show historic Titles. They record currently existing Titles and their ownership and related matters.

Your issue is hard to understand so I would refer you to your conveyancer (hopefully you are not attempting to DIY the conveyancing?).

Ideally I'd pop in to their office for a face-to-face chat where you can raise your concerns and receive proper legal explanations and advice.


Note: my light-hearted suggested that you return to the pub was in response to

I was out for drinks and was chatting to random person who happened to be a developer, briefly spoke about it, and he mentioned from what memory serves me, about something called Land ownership issues, countenance to wipe the countenance records and few other things i cant remember

By your own admission
* you'd been drinking
* this was a 'random person'
* it was a 'brief' conversation which
* you can't remember
* involving 'Land ownership issues, countenance' which makes no sense


Hence I suggested trying to acually formulate a meaningful question based on known facts and a specific issue.

*