Joint freeholder doesn't want joint insurance

AdrianC

MarlaM wrote: »

@AdrianC - Yes, I agree, it doesn't sound right but apparently freeholder/landlord insurance is expensive regardless of how many flats are under one roof even if both owners live there and it's not rented. If we were 4 flats it would be a lot easier to convince them to pay £200.

Does that not tell you, then, that the £100 each is actually a waste of £100 each, not a saving of £300 each? Simply because it's not the right policy, so won't pay what you want in the event of a major claim.

If you're both happy to effectively self-insure, then great. But why, then, waste the £100 each...?

[Deleted User]

eddddy wrote: »

I find that hard to believe, but since I can't see the lease I can't comment further.

TBH, "leaseholders must contribute towards insuring the building" doesn't sound like a phrase you'd find in a lease. I wonder if you're looking at the wrong document - perhaps a description of the lease written by your solicitor.

Hummm yes, it was her wording and perhaps you could be right regarding the doc. It does say lease on the front, but I think there is additional documentation I skipped past last night because that paperwork didn't say 'lease' on them - so maybe there are some updated additions in that. I'll go back to it. Thanks so far for your help. I really appreciate your time.

[Deleted User]

AdrianC wrote: »

Does that not tell you, then, that the £100 each is actually a waste of £100 each, not a saving of £300 each? Simply because it's not the right policy, so won't pay what you want in the event of a major claim.

If you're both happy to effectively self-insure, then great. But why, then, waste the £100 each...?

Yes, it tells ME that - but not them unfortunately. I intend to show them your replies though in the hope to convince - wish me luck!

eddddy

MarlaM wrote: »

Hummm yes, it was her wording and perhaps you could be right regarding the doc. It does say lease on the front, but I think there is additional documentation I skipped past last night because that paperwork didn't say 'lease' on them - so maybe there are some updated additions in that. I'll go back to it. Thanks so far for your help. I really appreciate your time.

• The lease is one long legal document - probably about 20 pages.

• It's written in "legalese" - it will probably have sections called "schedules", it will have lists of "covenants".

• It almost certainly won't use the words "leaseholder" and "freeholder". Instead it might say "Lessor / Lessee" or "Landlord / Tenant".

Maybe your solicitor has kept the original for safe-keeping, but you should have a copy.

As a joint freeholder, you should really read the lease in detail to make sure that you understand your responsibilities.

G_M

You really must identify the lease itself, not some resume of it by someone else (even a solicitor).

Then you must find and quote here evry clause relating to insurance.

There will probably be a whole section of clauses which are the freeholder's (or landord's) responsibilities, and another whole section of clauses which are the leaseholder's (or tenant's) responsibilities.

[Deleted User]

Evening all.

Thanks all for your patience, I have read the lease, but I find it so hard to wade through the jargon used - so appreciate you all taking the time to help.

Here is the ACTUAL wording of all mentions of insurance:

The Lessor hereby convenants as follows:

To keep the building and any said part thereof and any fixture or fittings therein that in the Lessor's opinion it is prudent to insure insured against loss or damage by fire, storm, tempest and (if possible) aircraft explosion and damage by burst pipes in such sum as shall be considered by the Lessors surveyors to be the full value thereof and for two years loss of rent and to cause all monies received in respect of any such insurance to be paid out in rebuilding or reinstating or otherwise reinstating the said building or the part there of so destroyed and/or damaged.

And another section:

THE SCHEDULE above referred to
Costs, expenses, outgoing and matters in respect of which the Lease is to make a contribution.

The costs of insurance and keeping insured throughout the term hereby created the said building and any part thereof and any fixtures or fittings therein that in the Lessors opinion is is prudent to insure against loss or damage by fire, storm, tempest and (if possible) aircraft explosion and damage by burst pipes and such other risks including two years loss of rent normally covered under a comprehensive insurance as the Lessor shall determine.

eddddy

MarlaM wrote: »

The Lessor hereby convenants as follows:

To keep the building and any said part thereof and any fixture or fittings therein that in the Lessor's opinion it is prudent to insure insured against loss or damage by fire, storm, tempest and (if possible) aircraft explosion and damage by burst pipes in such sum as shall be considered by the Lessors surveyors to be the full value thereof and for two years loss of rent and to cause all monies received in respect of any such insurance to be paid out in rebuilding or reinstating or otherwise reinstating the said building or the part there of so destroyed and/or damaged.

OK - so that's what I guessed.

"Lessor" means "Freeholder"

So the freeholder (or in your case, the joint freeholders) is responsible for insuring the whole building.

MarlaM wrote: »

THE SCHEDULE above referred to
Costs, expenses, outgoing and matters in respect of which the [STRIKE]Lease[/STRIKE] Lessee is to make a contribution.

Do you mean "lease" or "lessee" as shown above?

"Lessee" means "Leaseholder".

That means the leasholders must contribute towards the cost of the insurance, that has been arranged by the freeholder.


So...

Maybe show your neighbour the lease, and explain that it says the joint freeholders have to arrange a buildings insurance policy for the whole building.

Hopefully, your neighbour will then agree.

If your neighbour doesn't agree, you'll have to start serving legal notices etc - and that'll start getting expensive.

eddddy

MarlaM wrote: »

...she reminded me that she made the vendor take out Contingent Building Indemnity Insurance out for us because she did indeed see a red flag on the lease. (I had forgotten this fact - my apologies for not mentioning).

Just to add... because it's very important.

Don't tell your neighbour that you have taken out Contingent Building Indemnity Insurance. You might invalidate the policy.

It's usually a condition of a policy that you don't disclose it's existence to anybody.

[Deleted User]

eddddy wrote: »

OK -
Do you mean "lease" or "lessee" as shown above?

"Lessee" means "Leaseholder".

It actually says "Lease" - So unsure which one is should say.


Ok, thanks so much for clarifying. I will take the lease and your easier way of explaining this to them and see what they say. I keep my fingers crossed.


If they don't agree, I really don't want to start any legal proceedings so it's my (perhaps wrong) understanding that the indemnity might give me some extra protection should we have to go separately. (Noted about keeping it private, thank you for that advice)


Best wishes for now... I will chat over the weekend to them.

G_M

As edddy says above

MarlaM wrote: »

The Lessor freeholder hereby convenants as follows:

To keep the building and any said part thereof and any fixture or fittings therein that in the Lessor's opinion it is prudent to insure insured against loss or damage by fire, storm, tempest and (if possible) aircraft explosion and damage by burst pipes in such sum as shall be considered by the Lessors surveyors to be the full value thereof and for two years loss of rent and to cause all monies received in respect of any such insurance to be paid out in rebuilding or reinstating or otherwise reinstating the said building or the part there of so destroyed and/or damaged.
Perfectly clear. Freeholder must insure the whole buildnig.
And another section:

THE SCHEDULE above referred to
Costs, expenses, outgoing and matters in respect of which the Lease is to make a contribution.

The costs of insurance and keeping insured throughout the term hereby created the said building and any part thereof and any fixtures or fittings therein that in the Lessors opinion is is prudent to insure against loss or damage by fire, storm, tempest and (if possible) aircraft explosion and damage by burst pipes and such other risks including two years loss of rent normally covered under a comprehensive insurance as the Lessor shall determine.

Perfectly clear. Leaseholder must contribute to insurance cost.
Presumably the other lease similarly specifies the other leaseholder must also contribute.