How to Vacate a Permitted Occupier

[Deleted User]

DoaM wrote: »

Did anyone else get a PM from the new forum member? Apparently they reported my (factually correct) post.

No and if we start reporting Newish's factually incorrect posts we'd be here all night. :rotfl:

EmEverie

Firstly, I think referring to participants in the forum with an address of "idiocy" is grossly unwarranted. Everyone has had various experiences and this forum should serve a space where people's experiences, knowledge and expertise - no matter how big or small - can be shared without being met with insults.

With that being said, with regards to the point raised around explaining the relationship dynamic, Newish, noted - I should clarify further...

I am not the owner/landlord of the property. I am a tenant and I am the sole tenant on my lease. When I signed my lease I lived alone and paid all my rent in advance for my entire tenancy term upfront. Months later, in good faith I decided to let someone stay in the spare room temporarily after clearing it with the letting agency. The agency then got the landlord's permission to allow the person to live with me and then added them as permitted occupiers on my lease. The permitted occupier does not have any relationship/direct contact with the agency or landlord nor do they pay rent to the landlord/agency. The PO pays me monthly expense contributions in exchange for living with me.

My concern is that for various reasons - namely that the PO has shown they have no care or concern for the safety of the property - I now need to ask this person to leave and I want to ensure I do this properly and lawfully to get them out but since it's a sole Tenant (i.e. me) and PO relationship I don't know how best to proceed.

This person has been staying with me for 4 months now. They have sole use of the spare room but all other space in the flat are shared i.e. kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, living room, hallway etc.

This person is listed on my AST as a permitted occupier and under the definitions/glossary section on my AST it defines permitted occupier as:

"Permitted Occupier(s) means the person(s) set out in Schedule 1 who is/are a person(s) licensed by the Landlord to reside at the Premises for the duration of the Tenancy."

My worries / questions are:

1) Am I able to ask the PO to leave with reasonable notice without having to go to court to get them out?

2) Is the definition wording above saying the PO cannot be asked to leave until the end of the tenancy?
My current lease still has 5 months before it ends so given this definition of po on my AST am I able to still ask the PO to leave with reasonable notice or will I only able to do so once my current tenancy ends?

3) Since it is a Tenant and PO relationship, if I ask the PO to leave and they do not leave what would be my next course of action? Are section 21 notices only granted to direct landlords or can tenants use them also to evict a PO?

4) Are 'Licenses' as strong as tenancies then? i.e. can licenses issued to POs to permit them to live with tenancy holders not be broken with reasonable notice?

I'm worried if the PO continues living here he's going to cause potential irreparable problems for me with the property and damage my relationship with the landlord so to avoid this I want to follow whatever the best lawfully form of acton is to cut ties and get them out.

Thank you all again for your shared advice - much appreciated!

getmore4less

Does this lodger know that the landlord has given permission for you to have them(named) as a lodger?
Do they know this was written into the lease?

What was the original agreement with this person, you say it was a favour

...
It was merely a casual arrangement on temporary basis. I was merely trying to help out this person
...
I decided to let someone stay in the spare room temporarily
...

Was there any discussion on the temporary nature of the arrangement or time scales.

If there was, you may want to adjust any notice to reflect those discussions

They are your lodger, give them notice to leave
Avoid any "I want you to leave because..." that just opens the door to negotiate.

Titus_Wadd

Having the PO in your home must be very stressful. I can't give definitive advice but the PO has a licence which is less than a tenancy. Your tenancy agreement with the landlord has been updated to mention the PO but doesn't create a contract between the landlord and the PO. The PO is a lodger with a licence granted by you, so you can end it. Serve notice as an unfussy letter with no reasons and explanations and breathe a sigh of relief when the OP leaves.

Sorry I can't say whether a week, fortnight or month's notice is appropriate, but hopefully someone else will know. I hope you get it sorted.

Tigsteroonie

Newish wrote: »

Yeah, lets ignore the fact that I have 20 years+ experience of evictions at County Court level!

Wow, you've been repeatedly evicted over twenty years?

es5595

1) yes, they hold a licence

2) no, your tenancy and their licence are separate items. The PO is simply confirmation from the landlord that you can grant a licence

3) change the locks, pack up belongings and move downstairs, you need to hold onto them for a reasonable period and allow them to be collected. If they arrive and cause problems, dial 999 for police and report a domestic disturbance.

4) no, licences are not tenancies and provide very few rights.

They have sole use of the spare room

By this do you mean it’s lockable from the outside? So that when they aren’t there you can’t get in? Or simply they use the room and you give them privacy? Do you vacuum the floor in there when you’re doing the landing? Or collect mugs/glasses before putting a load in the dishwasher? I’d suggest you’ve granted a licence, not a tenancy, regardless of what you’ve written on any paperwork. “If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck, even if you put a sign around it’s neck calling it a Tiger”

How often do they pay? That would generally be a good time frame to give them notice for, unless they really are horrific and you need them out sooner. You could always give them xx days notice to their next payment point, but include you’re happy to do a pro-rata refund if they move out sooner.

G_M

Originally Posted by Newish
Yeah, lets ignore the fact that I have 20 years+ experience of evictions at County Court level!

Tigsteroonie wrote: »

Wow, you've been repeatedly evicted over twenty years?

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:7




(ps - I have nothing to add to my earlier posts)

Winter_Phoenix

Emeverie, this individual is your lodger, not a tenant.

"Permitted Occupier" means that the landlord knows that you have a lodger, is fine with your having a lodger, and - as far as the landlord is concerned - you are welcome to keep this individual as a lodger until the end of your tenancy IF you wish to do so.

It does NOT mean that you cannot get rid of your lodger - whether you allow this individual to stay or not is entirely your choice.

As other sensible posters have suggested earlier, give this "permitted occupier" reasonable notice (perhaps a week), and if they do not leave then change the locks while they are out and arrange for them to collect their possessions (carefully packed up by you, if you do not want them wandering through your home again).

They do not have a tenancy, they do not have any legal relationship with your landlord, they are simply your lodger for as long as you wish them to be.

DoaM

DoaM wrote: »

Did anyone else get a PM from the new forum member? Apparently they reported my (factually correct) post.

It seems my previous post has disappeared ... the usual fire-and-forget approach by the forum team without even considering whether the report was reasonable.

PS - I haven't reported (what is now) post #17, even though it is suggesting that I am an idiot.

EmEverie

getmore4less wrote: »

Does this lodger know that the landlord has given permission for you to have them(named) as a lodger? Yes, they know that i've informed the agency that they are staying with me
Do they know this was written into the lease? No they do not know it is written in the lease but they know the agency has been informed

What was the original agreement with this person, you say it was a favour it was a casual arrangement on a temporarily basis


Was there any discussion on the temporary nature of the arrangement or time scales. there was no time frame set only that it was to be a temporary arrangement

If there was, you may want to adjust any notice to reflect those discussions

They are your lodger, give them notice to leave
Avoid any "I want you to leave because..." that just opens the door to negotiate.

Great, thanks so much for your advice.