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Suspended, gross misconduct & looking for advice.
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Forum_Name
Posts: 152 Forumite
My mother has been suspended from her work, is facing an investigation which the outcome may be gross misconduct & is looking for advice. The 2 points raised in the letter requesting her to attend a meeting are:
1) An incident between my mother & another worker (let's call her Jane) which is said to have become heated/aggressive to a point another worker (let's call them Bob) felt they had to step between them to prevent physical assault. (Misconduct and/or physical violence)
2) That she left work without authorisation and also without telling anyone she had left work. (Unorthorised absence).
#2 is perhaps the easiest to answer/explain to you guys...
My mother has been there approx. 18 months. At no point she says has it been specified what they have to do when leaving. By that i mean she has never been told you need to report to [this person] before leaving. With that said, she always sees the boss to let him know she's going. If he's on the phone for example she'll mouth that she's off now & give him a wave.
She says she has never had a situation where she has come to leave and the boss has not been there & has never been told - if he's not there then you specifically have to do XYZ. (On this particular day he was off the premises).
My mother is contracted a set number of hours per day. Let's say her contracted hours are until 1:00pm. Every single day she works beyond this. She says that she never asks if she can and she more often than not doesn't get asked to. If there is a large order on then the boss may ask her - "what time are you working until today?". He knows she finishes at 1:00pm but he appears to ask this knowing she'll work beyond this but leaves the actual time up to her to decide and never complains that a) she's worked too much overtime or b) not enough. As i say, mostly he doesn't ask and just leaves her actual finishing time up to her.
In the case of her leaving in this incident, she had actually worked her contracted hours and was in overtime. This isn't an excuse or a trying to get out of jail thing. This is just trying to paint the picture so that she can get suitable advice.
Regards the not telling anyone, she completely disagrees with this. The person who 'had to' step between them to 'stop it getting violent' (Bob) told my mother to calm down and take some time in her car. My mother, shaking too bad and too upset after the incident and being in her overtime hours told this person she could not continue that day and that she would be going home.
As she was leaving, Jane went running out after her, apologising. My mother said it was too little too late and that she was going home.
She had clocked off and then went home.
As for point #1, this has been bubbling for months and i've told her frequently that it needs to be reported but she has consistently refused because it's 1) petty stuff to be reporting 2) she didn't agree with me that it's a form of bullying 3) she found it embarrassing to say that someone approaching their 60s could possibly allow someone who's just broken their 20s to bully them 4) she gets along with the boss very well and doesn't want to sour that relationship by frequently bringing negativity all the time 5) she doesn't want to be known as a tell-tale 6) if she did tell, the boss would possibly investigate, Jane would then find out and what next for my mother? It stops or they get sneakier and nastier? 7) One i've forgotten - she'd have to prove it. Jane is quite crafty and mostly does things out of eyesight and earshot.
Again, not trying to excuse anything, just trying to explain the why's and the why nots, even if it may have been the wrong decision.
On this particular day Jane had taken numerous shots at my mother with snide remarks. There is a person who has recently been sacked who my mother was close to (call him Gavin). Jane was slating Gavin to my mother. Despite my advice to not bite, my mother took the bait and responded that Jane is nobody to slate Gavin. Jane told my mother to "be careful what you wish for". My mother said "what are you on about, i haven't wished for anything". Jane's response was to sneer - "yes but i have, and i got my wish". While not coming out and saying it, this was a reference to her wanting Gavin to be sacked as she didn't like him.
Jane then got personal saying to my mother - "I hope your kids are proud of you" and the bit that lead to my mother actually leaving work that day .... "people like you always get what's coming to them. Look at what's happened to you recently".
This is clearly a reference to my grandmother dying as it is the only thing that has 'happened recently' to my mother that Jane knows about. My mother has literally just returned to work after being signed off because of this.
My mother was shouting at her "how dare you, you know what's happened to me, how dare you say that". She admits to pointing her finger at Jane while shouting this, however they were not toe-to-toe. My mother says that while they weren't at apposite ends of the room she doesn't believe she was even within striking distance. She can't say for sure as she would never even hit her so she didn't even pay it great mind how close they were.
As my grandmother dying happened not all that long ago, my mother is still very upset, especially after losing her dad a few years ago and my dad a year or so before that. She feels alone and so is upset by losing these people anyway without having it used against her like this.
She did try to carry on but was shaking too much to continue, she felt she was too emotional and as she had done her contracted hours anyway she left.
That is the basic gist of what happened on the day that she is needing advice on as she is worried she will lose her job over this.
There are other things that are part of the bigger picture which while they don't answer the days events, it has all been building...
* This woman and her husband both work there, they're both foreign and will talk in their own language, look at my mum & then start sniggering - but when the boss is around they speak in English and don't do anything like this to my mum.
* On the topic of this husband, he has on numerous occasions got in my mums face with his hands up shouting and screaming at her. The boss is aware of part of this but i don't think he's aware of how bad it's actually gotten
* This Jane sneering to my mother that she sits on her own - basically calling her a loner and that nobody wants to sit with her at break time
* This Jane frequently slating my mothers work saying she's making so many errors, yet when it comes down to it no she isn't - as the boss has said. It is actually Jane that is making errors.
* The boss has told my mother a few times how when a disagreement has occurred, my mother is correct and Jane is wrong. Jane hates this and has made comment before "Yes, you are right, AGAIN, but you are not always right". The boss has never voiced concerns over my mothers work.
* The boss has told my mother that he's keeping an eye on this Jane and her husband ... so he's aware of issues with them.
There's other things also but this post is probably already double the size it should be.
Oh sorry i should perhaps also add that this Jane has already denied what she has done. As Bob came between them asking what had gone on, my mother in tears explained how Jane had used my grandmothers death to get at my mother. She told Bob that Jane knew how much the whole thing had upset my mother and how she'd been emotional leading up to the death (it didn't come as a surprise) and how she'd been signed off for a number of weeks because of it but she came out with that remark anyway.
Jane's response was to deny she said this at all.
Note that my mother has displayed no previous episode of randomly blowing up at people during her time there for things they have not said.
1) An incident between my mother & another worker (let's call her Jane) which is said to have become heated/aggressive to a point another worker (let's call them Bob) felt they had to step between them to prevent physical assault. (Misconduct and/or physical violence)
2) That she left work without authorisation and also without telling anyone she had left work. (Unorthorised absence).
#2 is perhaps the easiest to answer/explain to you guys...
My mother has been there approx. 18 months. At no point she says has it been specified what they have to do when leaving. By that i mean she has never been told you need to report to [this person] before leaving. With that said, she always sees the boss to let him know she's going. If he's on the phone for example she'll mouth that she's off now & give him a wave.
She says she has never had a situation where she has come to leave and the boss has not been there & has never been told - if he's not there then you specifically have to do XYZ. (On this particular day he was off the premises).
My mother is contracted a set number of hours per day. Let's say her contracted hours are until 1:00pm. Every single day she works beyond this. She says that she never asks if she can and she more often than not doesn't get asked to. If there is a large order on then the boss may ask her - "what time are you working until today?". He knows she finishes at 1:00pm but he appears to ask this knowing she'll work beyond this but leaves the actual time up to her to decide and never complains that a) she's worked too much overtime or b) not enough. As i say, mostly he doesn't ask and just leaves her actual finishing time up to her.
In the case of her leaving in this incident, she had actually worked her contracted hours and was in overtime. This isn't an excuse or a trying to get out of jail thing. This is just trying to paint the picture so that she can get suitable advice.
Regards the not telling anyone, she completely disagrees with this. The person who 'had to' step between them to 'stop it getting violent' (Bob) told my mother to calm down and take some time in her car. My mother, shaking too bad and too upset after the incident and being in her overtime hours told this person she could not continue that day and that she would be going home.
As she was leaving, Jane went running out after her, apologising. My mother said it was too little too late and that she was going home.
She had clocked off and then went home.
As for point #1, this has been bubbling for months and i've told her frequently that it needs to be reported but she has consistently refused because it's 1) petty stuff to be reporting 2) she didn't agree with me that it's a form of bullying 3) she found it embarrassing to say that someone approaching their 60s could possibly allow someone who's just broken their 20s to bully them 4) she gets along with the boss very well and doesn't want to sour that relationship by frequently bringing negativity all the time 5) she doesn't want to be known as a tell-tale 6) if she did tell, the boss would possibly investigate, Jane would then find out and what next for my mother? It stops or they get sneakier and nastier? 7) One i've forgotten - she'd have to prove it. Jane is quite crafty and mostly does things out of eyesight and earshot.
Again, not trying to excuse anything, just trying to explain the why's and the why nots, even if it may have been the wrong decision.
On this particular day Jane had taken numerous shots at my mother with snide remarks. There is a person who has recently been sacked who my mother was close to (call him Gavin). Jane was slating Gavin to my mother. Despite my advice to not bite, my mother took the bait and responded that Jane is nobody to slate Gavin. Jane told my mother to "be careful what you wish for". My mother said "what are you on about, i haven't wished for anything". Jane's response was to sneer - "yes but i have, and i got my wish". While not coming out and saying it, this was a reference to her wanting Gavin to be sacked as she didn't like him.
Jane then got personal saying to my mother - "I hope your kids are proud of you" and the bit that lead to my mother actually leaving work that day .... "people like you always get what's coming to them. Look at what's happened to you recently".
This is clearly a reference to my grandmother dying as it is the only thing that has 'happened recently' to my mother that Jane knows about. My mother has literally just returned to work after being signed off because of this.
My mother was shouting at her "how dare you, you know what's happened to me, how dare you say that". She admits to pointing her finger at Jane while shouting this, however they were not toe-to-toe. My mother says that while they weren't at apposite ends of the room she doesn't believe she was even within striking distance. She can't say for sure as she would never even hit her so she didn't even pay it great mind how close they were.
As my grandmother dying happened not all that long ago, my mother is still very upset, especially after losing her dad a few years ago and my dad a year or so before that. She feels alone and so is upset by losing these people anyway without having it used against her like this.
She did try to carry on but was shaking too much to continue, she felt she was too emotional and as she had done her contracted hours anyway she left.
That is the basic gist of what happened on the day that she is needing advice on as she is worried she will lose her job over this.
There are other things that are part of the bigger picture which while they don't answer the days events, it has all been building...
* This woman and her husband both work there, they're both foreign and will talk in their own language, look at my mum & then start sniggering - but when the boss is around they speak in English and don't do anything like this to my mum.
* On the topic of this husband, he has on numerous occasions got in my mums face with his hands up shouting and screaming at her. The boss is aware of part of this but i don't think he's aware of how bad it's actually gotten
* This Jane sneering to my mother that she sits on her own - basically calling her a loner and that nobody wants to sit with her at break time
* This Jane frequently slating my mothers work saying she's making so many errors, yet when it comes down to it no she isn't - as the boss has said. It is actually Jane that is making errors.
* The boss has told my mother a few times how when a disagreement has occurred, my mother is correct and Jane is wrong. Jane hates this and has made comment before "Yes, you are right, AGAIN, but you are not always right". The boss has never voiced concerns over my mothers work.
* The boss has told my mother that he's keeping an eye on this Jane and her husband ... so he's aware of issues with them.
There's other things also but this post is probably already double the size it should be.
Oh sorry i should perhaps also add that this Jane has already denied what she has done. As Bob came between them asking what had gone on, my mother in tears explained how Jane had used my grandmothers death to get at my mother. She told Bob that Jane knew how much the whole thing had upset my mother and how she'd been emotional leading up to the death (it didn't come as a surprise) and how she'd been signed off for a number of weeks because of it but she came out with that remark anyway.
Jane's response was to deny she said this at all.
Note that my mother has displayed no previous episode of randomly blowing up at people during her time there for things they have not said.
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Comments
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My mother has been there approx. 18 months
Read that far and didn't bother with the rest.
With under 2 years service they can get rid of her for any or no reason (excluding some protected characteristics).0 -
Yes i am aware of this, however this does not mean that all employers will get rid of all employees for any incident regardless of how minor or significant if they have served less than 24 months (which in this case applies to them both).RichardD1970 wrote: »Read that far and didn't bother with the rest.
With under 2 years service they can get rid of her for any or no reason (excluding some protected characteristics).
There is still an investigation to be carried out, she is still required to attend a meeting next week. To turn up and say, i know you can pot me for any reason due to my length of service would be ridiculous.
So she is looking for some advice going ahead. She has not requested i ask online - she has asked me for advice.
Aside from that i don't believe she has done anything actually wrong, i don't know what to say. As they've questioned her not having authorisation - i don't understand that as she'd worked her hours and it's not common practice for her to say, may i go now please. As for not telling anyone, yes she did. So the question then is why this hasn't been relayed or is this Bob character withholding this information purposefully? As an outsider i have to wonder this.
"Having to step between them" is a matter of opinion. Nobody knows if it's going to come to blows and my mother has shown no previous indication she's a violent person (she's not) although granted, others may not know this. Is shouting at this other person being violent? I wouldn't have thought so but i may be wrong. I would imagine in the context of things, her reaction could be justified. What person having just lost their mother would stand there and say calmly, thank you for that comment, it meant the world to me? And as this Jane is denying she said anything then why did my mother randomly get upset?
Apparently there is CCTV, although whether it's working is another matter. Plus there'll be no audio i believe.
Having never had to attend such a meeting in her life, she's obviously bricking it. I just thought i'd ask here for advice.0 -
Your mum got into a slanging match at work with another employee and lost her temper. Not good. Not professional.
She has worked there less than 2 years.
I suggest she starts job hunting.Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')
No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)0 -
Your mother's only explanation for her behaviour should be the harassment and bullying from Jane pushed her over the edge. This is the only rationale explanation for your mother 'attacking' Jane, so she should stick to her story that Jane went too far and your mother, quite reasonably under the circumstances, "lost it".
Bob or the manager only needs to confirm that Jane has denied her behaviour that cause this, and this IS gross misconduct on Jane's part - lying to her employer to prevent a fair hearing for your mother.
Your mother needs to think about what form of resolution she can accept. Jane being dismissed for gross misconduct is the only thing that I would accept under the circumstances. Matters have come to a head and the employer needs to chose between Jane and your mum.
I think your Mum should consider what she would say if the employer asks her to accept an apology. I think I would say, "I will accept a sincere and genuine apology, but I'm not sure I can work with someone who lies to avoid the consequences of their actions", and leave the employer to reflect on whether they want your reasonable mum or lying Jane working for them.
The fact Jane's husband works there complicates matters further, but this should not be something your mum worries about at this time. If the husband kicks off, he will find himself dismissed for gross misconduct too, and that will be the end of them.The comments I post are my personal opinion. While I try to check everything is correct before posting, I can and do make mistakes, so always try to check official information sources before relying on my posts.0 -
Out of interest, and on the topic of not professional (which i imagine personal attacks to be also unprofessional), what would you suggest is likely to happen to Jane in this situation (bearing in mind she has also been suspended)?Your mum got into a slanging match at work with another employee and lost her temper. Not good. Not professional.
She has worked there less than 2 years.
I suggest she starts job hunting.
Not that it's of any concern to my mothers situation. I'm just thinking if we are to be robotic in the workplace and show zero emotion no matter how sensitive the topic then if the reaction warrants a sacking, surely the trigger would also get a sacking?
I know of someone recently who (also hadn't been at his place for 2 years) punched a co-worker. He had been getting goaded by the other person, for months, many months. Story short the outcome was they were both put on a final warning. How is this story relevant to my mother? Well it isn't really but it does show that there's people out there who do look at incidents in the context of things and can see that at the end of the day we are human, not robots. I hope for my mothers sake that her boss can see that she's never given trouble throughout her time there, she works well and she reacted as many people would do after such a comment. She did not physically assault anyone, she didn't even step to anyone as though she was going to physically assault them. Fingers crossed he acknowledges this and does not let her go.0 -
I agree with this and have told her so.Your mother needs to think about what form of resolution she can accept. Jane being dismissed for gross misconduct is the only thing that I would accept under the circumstances. Matters have come to a head and the employer needs to chose between Jane and your mum.
I can't really see much other choice for the employer as things have 'gone too far'. Telling them to just get along is unlikely to work as too much has happened, not just this past week.
I have told my mother she needs to shoulder some of the blame (in my opinion). She's very nice and tries to get along with everyone, the downside of which she can be a bit of a doormat. She doesn't want to trouble the boss with tittle-tattling. She doesn't want to cause trouble for Jane and her husband. She didn't believe it was bullying.
All well and good but i warned her long ago that it could end up like this (although even i didn't think Jane would stoop so low as to use someones dead parent as ammunition). Every time i told her to report what she was telling me, she refused saying that it's just petty stuff and she didn't want to be seen as being "soft" or "childish".
That's fine but if you report over time and paint a picture then when it's all exploded it's much easier to say - i told you this was coming, i told you what was being said, rather than this person has been at me for months but i've just never told you before, and they do it in such a crafty way that i have no witnesses.
You raise a point that concerns me - if this Jane goes then her husband is also likely to go. Her father actually works there also. My mother says he speaks very very little English but is a lovely man, nothing like Jane or her husband. I am guessing he essentially needs those two (or at least one of them) to be translators.
So you have a 3 or 1 situation ... which concerns me.
I can't remember if i have mentioned it earlier in this thread but apparently Jane has been busted before for lying. Apparently she denied something some time ago where she was caught out by CCTV.
I know it doesn't say anything about the case at hand. It just shows she isn't so squeaky clean.0 -
Assuming your mother left the premises before her standard end time without telling anybody, that will be classed as misconduct by most employers. For example, if there had been a fire her actions could have put other staff at risk if they tried to find her. Getting into an argument with somebody isn't unusual, but it's how the argument develops which can create problems. Threats of physical violence, or the other party fearing that was about to happen is not acceptable. Clearly somebody was concerned as they stepped between the parties.
What has happened to any of the individuals in the past has absolutely no relevance to this situation, nor would trying to use an argument of "So-and-so did the same once and nobody said anything"0 -
Well all your mother can do is go to the investigation meeting and tell the truth in regards to what happened. Ultimately though the employer can choose to fire one of them, both of them or neither of them.0
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I'm not sure why this would be assumed?Assuming your mother left the premises before her standard end time without telling anybody,
Depending on the definition of "standard end time" it could mean anything. Her contracted end time is 1:00pm and she left after this as i said earlier.
If it means the time she usually finishes then there isn't actually a usual, as i said earlier. Some times she may stop until 2pm, sometimes 3pm, 4pm. It's pretty much left to her to decide her finishing time, providing she's at least done her contracted hours. The business is busy and she stops on 1) for more cash and 2) to help the team as well as 3) she enjoys her job (aside from this Jane person, but then Jane isn't 'the job'). She's not pressured in to staying nor is she ever told she can't.
So as i said, she was in to what would be her overtime, and it is frequent that her finishing time within overtime is left to her to decide.
As for not telling anyone - this is total nonsense. She told 2 people. She can understand why one (Jane) wouldn't relay this info as Jane is clearly out to get rid of my mother but why Bob wouldn't relay this info is a mystery. If he hasn't been asked then that's one thing, but then clearly he's volunteered the info about stepping between them so why he wouldn't then go on to say - she came back inside, tried to work, decided to leave, i tried talking her in to staying but she said she was going, is a mystery at this point, but it'd be her word against his as to whether she gave notice of her leaving.
I've been in such a situation myself, years ago. Actually i've been on both ends of a my word against theirs situation, both as an accuser and the accused. The outcome in both situations was nothing. No witnesses = can't be proved who is right = no action.0 -
Forum_Name wrote: »She had clocked off and then went home.
Do you mean she went through some physical 'clocking off' or signing out process that could be seen by others to show that she had left for the day ? If so, and given it was after the end of her standard contracted hours, I can't see she has any case to answer for this part of the complaint.0
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