Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Only mentioned recently, but a fun article on BEV trains as interest seems to be growing fast. Also I thought it was cool how these BEV loco's will be used in a hybrid role by replacing a diesel-electric loco, but working with other diesel-electrics. So a good way to roll them out, and benefit from some easy fuel savings, without having to solve all issues/problems (yet) of shifting to full BEV's.

Wabtec’s 100% Electric Locomotive Trickle Suddenly Becomes International Flood

Whelp, that was fast. The locomotive manufacturer Wabtec lit up the Intertubes last November when it debuted the new FLXdrive 100% electric locomotive in Pennsylvania, but that was just the beginning.  The company has nailed down two clients in Australia for its carbon-free choo-choo while also locking in a spot on the new Europe’s Rail Joint Undertaking, which aims to green up railway systems throughout Europe.

JKenH

5 financial reasons Brits are reluctant to change to electric vehicles (EVs)

 Nothing really we haven’t heard before but two of the points made me think a little. 

Some Brits have found that it may cost them more than £29,000 to purchase a basic EV that meets their needs.

On the issue of price, it is possible to find EVs that compare price wise with similar size ICEvs but part of the issue is the buyer’s perception of what his needs are. Many buyers are going to think they need a 300 mile range and once that figure is in their heads then they are going to be looking at £30k+ BEVs and perceive them as expensive compared to, perhaps, more budget ICE models that they could buy for £20k which would meet what they consider to be their needs. So we have potential buyers comparing apples with pears because there aren’t any apples that meet their needs.

This means that some Brits relying on public charging could be paying more than those who charge at home, depending on the distance driven and frequency of car use.

We know this of course but if you are of a particular mindset you may feel it is unfair that if you get a BEV you have to pay more for your fuel than the chap down the road who has home charging facilities. If, however, you buy a petrol car you will be paying the same for your fuel as the guy down the road with a similar car so you don’t feel you are losing out (even if it would still be cheaper to fuel up an EV). Now, some might dismiss this as stupidity but it isn’t dissimilar to someone with an E/W roof deciding not to go ahead with solar panels because he knows it will be costing him more per kwh generated than someone with a south facing roof. He feels he isn’t getting a very good deal, even if it is better than no deal. 

https://www.fool.co.uk/personal-finance/your-life/learn/5-financial-reasons-brits-are-reluctant-to-change-to-electric-vehicles-evs/

shinytop

JKenH said:

5 financial reasons Brits are reluctant to change to electric vehicles (EVs)

 Nothing really we haven’t heard before but two of the points made me think a little. 

Some Brits have found that it may cost them more than £29,000 to purchase a basic EV that meets their needs.

On the issue of price, it is possible to find EVs that compare price wise with similar size ICEvs but part of the issue is the buyer’s perception of what his needs are. Many buyers are going to think they need a 300 mile range and once that figure is in their heads then they are going to be looking at £30k+ BEVs and perceive them as expensive compared to, perhaps, more budget ICE models that they could buy for £20k which would meet what they consider to be their needs. So we have potential buyers comparing apples with pears because there aren’t any apples that meet their needs.

This means that some Brits relying on public charging could be paying more than those who charge at home, depending on the distance driven and frequency of car use.

We know this of course but if you are of a particular mindset you may feel it is unfair that if you get a BEV you have to pay more for your fuel than the chap down the road who has home charging facilities. If, however, you buy a petrol car you will be paying the same for your fuel as the guy down the road with a similar car so you don’t feel you are losing out (even if it would still be cheaper to fuel up an EV). Now, some might dismiss this as stupidity but it isn’t dissimilar to someone with an E/W roof deciding not to go ahead with solar panels because he knows it will be costing him more per kwh generated than someone with a south facing roof. He feels he isn’t getting a very good deal, even if it is better than no deal. 

https://www.fool.co.uk/personal-finance/your-life/learn/5-financial-reasons-brits-are-reluctant-to-change-to-electric-vehicles-evs/

In addition, the man-maths that says leasing a new EV is cheaper than an ICE one will be even less believable when electricity costs 30p a kWh for home charging. I assume the public points will pass on the increase too.  And not only will EVs cost more to run, people will have less money to spend on them after paying for their heating.  

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

5 financial reasons Brits are reluctant to change to electric vehicles (EVs)

 Nothing really we haven’t heard before but two of the points made me think a little. 

Some Brits have found that it may cost them more than £29,000 to purchase a basic EV that meets their needs.

Well, there are not a great deal of new EVs available at less than £30k, certainly not if you need a family car.  Even then, that is a budget brand.

Comparing to new ICE, £20k gets a good choice of family car or £30k gets a larger car and premium brand.

We, in this thread, know the financial whole cost favours EV.  The challenge is getting the average person to do the math

Martyn1981

I was minding my own business and simply enjoying this nice article, but then the final paragraph slapped me in the face.  

Opibus Introduces The First Locally Designed & Developed Electric Bus In Kenya

As the world rushes to decarbonize, it is really good to see all these developments in Kenya and in other countries on the African continent. In Kenya for example, renewables provided 92.3% of Kenya’s electricity generation in 2020. Accelerating the penetration of electric vehicles, especially in mass transit, is the next big opportunity and priority to lower emissions.

Coastalwatch

Following on from Marts earlier post about Wabtec in the US, DB Cargo in Germany are also planning alternate means of powering their diesel locomotives.

German rail operator DB Cargo to introduce hybrid trains in 2023

DB Cargo is gradually replacing all its current diesel locomotives with machines with alternative drives. The company plans to replace around 900 older diesel locomotives in the long term. The first new vehicles are scheduled to come into service in 2023.

According to Sigrid Nikutta, DB Board Member for Freight Transport and head of DB Cargo, the company sees a savings potential of around 14 million litres of diesel as a result of DB Cargo’s modernisation programme. “We are investing in our locomotive fleet because we are going to grow,” she is quoted as saying in a press release. “With state-of-the-art technology, we are helping to achieve the climate targets in transport.”

https://www.electrive.com/2022/01/19/german-rail-operator-db-cargo-to-introduce-hybrid-trains-in-2023/

Coastalwatch

Have to confess to being rather shocked by the very limited range of the battery in my neighbours hybrid. Like all battery's it does suffer in the colder months but even at normal summer temps it wasn't that impressive. I couldn't find the battery capacity stated anywhere and their information on various charging times from different output chargers do not make much sense.ie 3 phase supply, 11 kW Charger states 5hrs. It then also states at 6.6 kW a charge time 1 hour 40 mins!

On the three occasions the vehicle has been charged here it has taken 11.7, 11.58 & 11.77 kWh's suggesting perhaps a 10 or 11 kWh battery. On a full charge the car is currently telling him it has a range of 16 miles. If a 10 kWh battery then 1.6 miles/kWh or 625W/mile. Summer time he tells me the range is around 30 so a reasonable 3 miles/kWh for a hefty crossback perhaps is not so bad.

Looks like he may become a very regular visitor he's been twice this week so far. The company brochure even suggests charging daily!

Perhaps our Leaf at circa 3 miles/kWh in winter and 4 in summer isn't performing too badly then.

I wondered if owners of other hybrids had similar, or hopefully, better experiences?

Verdigris

From the reviews I've seen on Fifth Gear, I think that sort of battery size is typical for hybrids. I can't really see the point of them.

Grumpy_chap

Coastalwatch said:

On a full charge the car is currently telling him it has a range of 16 miles. If a 10 kWh battery then 1.6 miles/kWh or 625W/mile. Summer time he tells me the range is around 30 so a reasonable 3 miles/kWh for a hefty crossback perhaps is not so bad.

Not sure about the miles/kWh, but "up to 30 miles" seems to be a typical range for PHEV, assuming you drive with a feather to avoid the ICE cutting in to provide power.  For a regular "self-charging" hybrid, battery range of 1-2 miles at most is typical.  It's all a bit pointless TBH - I had a (regular) hybrid and the fuel economy was disappointing at best.  I am now in a normal ICE and won't go back to hybrid.  I'm keen to get to full EV one day though.

Martyn1981

Verdigris said:

From the reviews I've seen on Fifth Gear, I think that sort of battery size is typical for hybrids. I can't really see the point of them.

That got me thinking. PHEV's were touted as a bridge technology to get us from ICEV's (and perhaps HEV's too) to BEV's. Not a bad idea originally, but battery production around the World is ramping up fast and not the drag (or as big of one) on BEV's that was expected.

From there I started to ponder how long it might be before we see price parity for BEV's v's PHEV's, since a PHEV has most of the BEV kit and expense already, so you're 'just' looking at the extra cost of a larger motor and battery, v's the cost savings of removing the ICE, exhaust, cat, intake, cooling, clutch and gearbox.

So just for my own curiosity I looked up the Hyndai Ioniq, since that comes as a HEV, PHEV or BEV.

Bit shocked! Looking at Hyundai's prices, so excluding deals, haggling etc, but including the £1,500 PiG, the PHEV has a RRP of £30,800, whilst the BEV's is £30,550.

Just to be clear this is a lower energy/power BEV at 38kWh and 136PS, than many out there today, but it's also an excellent vehicle with an official range of nearly 200 miles (and our 2018 28kWh model will do 130 miles easy). [Edit - the PHEV has a 9kWh ~39 mile range battery. M.]

So, no judgment here, there may well be people who need the PHEV, or are simply too scared to dive all the way in yet, but great to see that price parity has been reached even if this example does require several caveats.