Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

almillar wrote: »

Martyn1981:


I am optimistic that I am making progress. Double counting the heating of an EV is a personal favourite gaffe, and we've already knocked 25% off these filthy EV emmissions!

Always good to be optimistic, and as I said it's good to pushback against false claims, and especially the FUD and nonsense that people like to post on the G&E board. I've done a lot of that with Ken this year, and the other 'diet-deniers', and spent most of this decade (as have many others) pushing back on Mr C too, but it's just to warn you that you (not GA) will eventually receive criticism, and you won't ever stop/convince him as he is not here for a rational debate.

Note that the 'diet deniers' will attack any criticism of GA instantly, but never challenge the nonsense he posts, so be aware of the undermining of the G&E board that is going on too around us.

With regard to BEV's, of course, you are not only on the right side of history, but in truth, the 'fight' is already over. BEV's are cleaner than ICE's already, hence the creative accounting that is now needed to perpetuate a [STRIKE]losing[/STRIKE] lost argument. They are already cheaper on a TCO basis, hence the need to compare expensive, large luxury BEV's to small base models. They are already better cars to drive and maintain, hence the need ...... OK I think this one gets 'forgotten'.

So now we are just in that middle period, after the sensible concerns have all been allayed, when the negative nancies and (my not so cheerful peers) angry old men just need to keep up the moan rate ....... flipping change ...... who needs flippin change ..... why can't we all just drive Ford Cortina's like the good ole days (actually I loved the Ford Cortina, but now I'm just waffling).

All the best.

Martyn1981

Cardew wrote: »

P.S.
I note that you no longer argue against solar farms being much less efficient than sub-4kWh systems on the roofs of houses dotted around the country;)

LOL.

He's back.

As I recall I never said that, and I and others have corrected you 100+ times on this false claim that you kept making in order to disrupt the PV news thread everytime a post about PV farms was made.

It's weird why you started this false claim about 7yrs ago, weirder that you kept making it to disrupt the G&E board, but all kinds of crazee that you would come back again with the same false claim, to disrupt threads yet again.


For everyone else who will be new to this 'story', a long time ago (around 2012) I said that PV farms were more efficient, and generated at lower cost than domestic PV, but as domestic PV 'saved' against a retail price roughly 3x higher than the wholesale price that PV farms 'sold' into, that domestic/demand side PV might be more economically viable than demand side PV.

From that day forward, and despite, as I said having corrected Mr C the first time he made the claim, and others having corrected him, and then myself correcting him for many years, he persists with his claim that I said PV farms were less efficient, each time I posted/praised a piece of PV farm news. Eventually most regulars simply grew to ignore him.

Sorry for the disruption, and for any further disruption on this or other threads if he decides to keep up his disruption/attacks.

Martyn1981

Back to BEV's, I believe most studies have shown that even in a high coal generation country such as Poland (80% coal generation) the BEV works out more efficient in terms of CO2 emissions, and of course pollution.

Another beauty of BEV's is that they will mostly be charged at night, when wind generation is higher, and the CO2 intensity of the grid is lower.

And their ability to absorb RE excess through smart charging in the future will allow a higher penetration of RE generation to be rolled out onto the grid - which in turn means less FF generation for all leccy supply, not just BEV's, so they are actually an integral part of the RE solution too.

I don't believe any of this is rocket science, nor complicated, but I note the 'arguments' against seem to be getting extremely complicated and borderline farcical.

EVandPV

Martyn1981 wrote: »

And their ability to absorb RE excess through smart charging in the future will allow a higher penetration of RE generation to be rolled out onto the grid - which in turn means less FF generation for all leccy supply, not just BEV's, so they are actually an integral part of the RE solution too.
.

Smart charging is here now through the likes of the Zappi, EmonEVSE and Ohme chargers.

Martyn1981

EVandPV wrote: »

Smart charging is here now through the likes of the Zappi, EmonEVSE and Ohme chargers.

Yep, sorry.

What would be the correct term for chargers that you will plug into, say during the day when at work, but won't charge your car unless there is some excess, perhaps PV (or the same thing at night with wind, when you don't necessarily need to charge, or top up) at a very low leccy price?

Handy to have a term for them, and I'm hesitant to say V2G, as whilst some may nick some leccy for peak demands, I'm guessing others will only offer charging ..... or I'm talking nonsense!

Martyn1981

It's so hard to praise Tesla all the time without it coming over as 'fanboi', but they do seem to have learnt a lot from the first TM3 production lines, and therefore can build TM3's in China at a much lower cost, so ..... they might drop their price significantly to compete with, dare I say, lesser BEV's?

Tesla Could Lower The Price Of Chinese Made Cars Next Year

The price of Tesla Model 3 sedans manufactured at the Shanghai gigafactory could drop by as much as 20% sometime next year, according to a Bloomberg report republished by the Los Angeles Times. The market for electric cars in China has been in free fall since the government slashed incentives designed to encourage people to buy one instead of a conventional car with a gasoline or diesel engine. Though, Tesla Model 3 December sales are expected to be relatively strong in the country.

EVandPV

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Yep, sorry.

What would be the correct term for chargers that you will plug into, say during the day when at work, but won't charge your car unless there is some excess, perhaps PV (or the same thing at night with wind, when you don't necessarily need to charge, or top up) at a very low leccy price?

Handy to have a term for them, and I'm hesitant to say V2G, as whilst some may nick some leccy for peak demands, I'm guessing others will only offer charging ..... or I'm talking nonsense!

The Zappi has 3 modes, fast for 'dumb' charging at full power, eco for using surplus pv and esense for detecting and charging at E7 rates.
The EmonEVSE is a pv diverter.
The Ohme works with economy tariffs including Octopus Agile and will charge when leccy drops below a selected price.

EricMears

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Back to BEV's, I believe most studies have shown that even in a high coal generation country such as Poland (80% coal generation) the BEV works out more efficient in terms of CO2 emissions, and of course pollution.

Regardless of the amount of CO2 savings (or even if there were none - which I rather doubt would be the case in the UK) let's not overlook the major environmental benefit of stopping 'local' emissions from car exhausts and replacing them with emissions from a power station chimney where gases can be cleaned up much more effectively than a car exhaust system could ever manage and any remaining 'nasties' are discharged at high level so are well and truly diluted before anyone gets to breathe them.

JKenH

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Back to BEV's, I believe most studies have shown that even in a high coal generation country such as Poland (80% coal generation) the BEV works out more efficient in terms of CO2 emissions, and of course pollution.

Another beauty of BEV's is that they will mostly be charged at night, when wind generation is higher, and the CO2 intensity of the grid is lower.

And their ability to absorb RE excess through smart charging in the future will allow a higher penetration of RE generation to be rolled out onto the grid - which in turn means less FF generation for all leccy supply, not just BEV's, so they are actually an integral part of the RE solution too.

I don't believe any of this is rocket science, nor complicated, but I note the 'arguments' against seem to be getting extremely complicated and borderline farcical.

I made no ‘arguments’ against against BEVs. I actually love them.

The argument was whether BEVs use marginal generation or core generation. Either way, with the current make up our grid some of the electricity used to power them comes from FF sources. The exception would be if you added stand alone solar panels to your house solely to charge the car and they alone were used to charge it. If you have existing panels and then later add a BEV, the charging of the BEV will increase the amount of electricity the grid must produce.

It is like my ASHPs. They can run a lot of the time on solar I have generated and I might perceive this to be cost free and CO2 free electricity. The reality is the solar pv used to run them would be powering something else and relieving the grid if I switch them off. So if I run my ASHPs the grid has to generate more to make up for the lost solar. While running the ASHPs is cost tree to me when there is plenty of solar PV spare just like charging my car from solar, neither is CO2 free because the grid has to generate more at its marginal CO2 rate to compensate for what I am not sending to it.

I agree on the whole BEVs should use less CO2 than ICEs although the saving will vary depending on the CO2 of the grid when used to charge them. I had perceived our grid mix would be quite clean so I was somewhat surprised to see as I write this that the CO2 emitted is currently 250g/kWh and the average CO2 for yesterday was 158g/kWh. So if I plug my car into the grid now am I using 240g/kWh CO2electrity. For those charging their cars overnight on Octopus Go 5p tariff grid CO2 emissions were 89g/kWh at 00.30 and between 0100 and 0230 stayed around 100g/kWh falling to 86g/kWh by 4am.

I attach a link below and hope I have understood the figures correctly.

Please don’t shoot the messenger. This is not having a downer on BEVs, it is just telling it as it is.

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?start=2019-12-19&&_k=97fhr7

Martyn1981

EricMears wrote: »

Regardless of the amount of CO2 savings (or even if there were none - which I rather doubt would be the case in the UK) let's not overlook the major environmental benefit of stopping 'local' emissions from car exhausts and replacing them with emissions from a power station chimney where gases can be cleaned up much more effectively than a car exhaust system could ever manage and any remaining 'nasties' are discharged at high level so are well and truly diluted before anyone gets to breathe them.

Absolutely. Did you see the article/report recently I posted showing that reductions in localised pollution can have almost instant benefits to our health?

And of course children having developing bodies, and being closer to exhaust pipes benefit the most.