The Alternative Green Energy Thread

QrizB

JKenH said:

Basically, can someone explain to me please how it all works - QrizB or anyone else? (Special exemption, Martyn1981 if you want to post a reply on here to help me out) TIA

We went through this with Ripple and Kirk Hill, when we were commissioning. There was an option for Kirk Hill to apply for CfD funding, which would have replaced our intended PPAs. The members voted 3:1 against a CfD, largely as we'd joined the co-op as a hedge against future high energy prices and a CfD would have negated that.

I would assume (and it's only an assumption) that ~ half a gigawatt of Moray West will opt out of CfDs and will instead enter a PPA with Amazon (either directly or via an intermediary company).

michaels

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Basically, can someone explain to me please how it all works - QrizB or anyone else? (Special exemption, Martyn1981 if you want to post a reply on here to help me out) TIA

We went through this with Ripple and Kirk Hill, when we were commissioning. There was an option for Kirk Hill to apply for CfD funding, which would have replaced our intended PPAs. The members voted 3:1 against a CfD, largely as we'd joined the co-op as a hedge against future high energy prices and a CfD would have negated that.

I would assume (and it's only an assumption) that ~ half a gigawatt of Moray West will opt out of CfDs and will instead enter a PPA with Amazon (either directly or via an intermediary company).

Haven't they played the system in that case. Using the CFD offer as a backstop / option but then taking a higher price when actually built?  The govt in underwriting the option but giving it away for free has lost out?

JKenH

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Basically, can someone explain to me please how it all works - QrizB or anyone else? (Special exemption, Martyn1981 if you want to post a reply on here to help me out) TIA

We went through this with Ripple and Kirk Hill, when we were commissioning. There was an option for Kirk Hill to apply for CfD funding, which would have replaced our intended PPAs. The members voted 3:1 against a CfD, largely as we'd joined the co-op as a hedge against future high energy prices and a CfD would have negated that.

I would assume (and it's only an assumption) that ~ half a gigawatt of Moray West will opt out of CfDs and will instead enter a PPA with Amazon (either directly or via an intermediary company).

Thank you, that’s very helpful. Either/or makes sense. 

I still really struggle to get my head round PPAs (it’s hard to learn new stuff at my age but I like to try). If anyone else is confused I found this illustration of how a Virtual PPA works (in the U.S.)

https://rmi.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/rmi-brc-intro-vppa.pdf

Magnitio

JKenH said:

Presumably we have all been avidly following the grid shut down story in Spain (which just happened to coincide  with peak solar). We don’t know the cause yet but rightly or wrongly frequency management and lack of inertia has been mentioned. Traditionally this has been provided by synchronous generation but battery storage can fulfil a similar role with “digital inertia” as this article from 2018 explains. 

https://www.current-news.co.uk/energy-storages-digital-inertia-could-stabilise-the-grid-at-a-fraction-of-t/

Does anybody know how this is progressing in the UK? It just seems to me that while there are lots of attention grabbing headlines about new wind and solar farms we don’t hear much about this.

You may find information that answers some of your questions here:

https://www.neso.energy/industry-information/balancing-services/frequency-response-services

Regarding some other posts you have made regarding China and UK's energy, you may also find the following of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCOlcdSlg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHNC0_sRvfw

JKenH

Magnitio said:

JKenH said:

Presumably we have all been avidly following the grid shut down story in Spain (which just happened to coincide  with peak solar). We don’t know the cause yet but rightly or wrongly frequency management and lack of inertia has been mentioned. Traditionally this has been provided by synchronous generation but battery storage can fulfil a similar role with “digital inertia” as this article from 2018 explains. 

https://www.current-news.co.uk/energy-storages-digital-inertia-could-stabilise-the-grid-at-a-fraction-of-t/

Does anybody know how this is progressing in the UK? It just seems to me that while there are lots of attention grabbing headlines about new wind and solar farms we don’t hear much about this.

You may find information that answers some of your questions here:

https://www.neso.energy/industry-information/balancing-services/frequency-response-services

Regarding some other posts you have made regarding China and UK's energy, you may also find the following of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skYCOlcdSlg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHNC0_sRvfw

Thank you. It’s taken me a while to wade through those. Maybe because I don’t understand the technology enough, I couldn’t find the answers I needed in the NESO document about the digital inertia solutions being deployed. None of the technologies referred to operated in the sub 1 second response times suggested as needed in the Current News article. 

I thought the two videos from Rosie were fair. I understand a little better why the new coal stations are being constructed (for grid stabilisation) but the video also made clear just how difficult it will be for developed economies to follow China’s lead in rolling out green technologies. One advantage of a dictatorship is you can get things done without worrying too much about what the majority of the population think. Also it is clear that China are building out infrastructure without it being of practical use in the foreseeable future (just as ghost towns were built and never occupied). It all generates economic activity which is good for GDP growth but the debt is mounting up (my comment - not in Rosie’s video). I am following China’s fortunes (as much as one can in the UK as real data is hard to come by - bad data such as youth unemployment is hidden) and it does look to me as China is teetering on the brink, economically, and the tariff war might push it over the edge. Maybe we will see coal generation peak this year after all.

The video on the UK was again interesting. I do watch some of Dave’s videos (even if he is a bit of an eco zealot) as he does have a good grasp on new green technology (at least it sounds as though he does). I thought the comments made by Rosie about grid inertia were interesting and how this will be a real challenge as renewables increase. Is what happened in Spain yesterday a lesson we hopefully won’t have to learn?

JKenH

 I was prompted to post this here by a question raised on another thread (rather than take that thread off course.

The government Public Accounts Committee is justifiably asking whether biomass can be considered a low carbon fuel. 

Is biomass sustainably sourced? Risk that sector is marking its own homework, PAC warns

Some £22bn of government support has been provided to businesses and households using biomass for fuel since 2022, including £6.5bn for biggest single recipient Drax. Biomass is seen by government as a low-carbon alternative to fossil fuels provided it’s sustainably sourced, and when used in combination with carbon capture and storage technology (BECCS*) is seen as essential to the achievement of net zero for the UK. However, questions and concerns have been raised around biomass causing significant environmental harm and whether it can genuinely be considered a low-carbon fuel.

The PAC’s report finds that government has for too long relied on an untested approach to make sure biomass generators are meeting sustainability criteria in return for receiving financial support. Current arrangements rely heavily on self-reporting and third-party schemes, and neither the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (DESNZ) or regulator Ofgem know whether this is effective in ensuring biomass’ sustainability.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accounts-committee/news/206506/is-biomass-sustainably-sourced-risk-that-sector-is-marking-its-own-homework-pac-warns/

At least we now know where the £22bn hole in government finances came from😉

Magnitio

JKenH said:

Some £22bn of government support has been provided to businesses and households using biomass for fuel since 2022...

This sounded wrong, so I checked. the £22bn is between 2002 and 2023.

There's quite a mix of biomass fuel in UK. What we should definitely be stopping is importing ship-loads of wood pellets from Canada. That is in no way sustainable.

EricMears

Magnitio said:

JKenH said:

Some £22bn of government support has been provided to businesses and households using biomass for fuel since 2022...

This sounded wrong, so I checked. the £22bn is between 2002 and 2023.

There's quite a mix of biomass fuel in UK. What we should definitely be stopping is importing ship-loads of wood pellets from Canada. That is in no way sustainable.

Original question was "Does anyone really class wood as a fossil fuel?".      Maybe not,  but it's just as bad !

A "ship-load of wood pellets from Canada"  might well be from a sustainable source but transport costs add to its carbon footprint.  Perhaps living in a forest and burning your own waste wood might be considered in a better light ?

Qyburn

EricMears said:

Original question was "Does anyone really class wood as a fossil fuel?". 

The context was a poster wondering whether removing two wood burning stoves counted as removing fossil fueled heating, which would help him qualify for a grant.

So shiploads of wood chip or pellets aren't relevant. Unless the argument is that because it's possible to conceive of a wood fuelled process that's as carbon intensive as coal or oil, it follows that all wood fuel should be treated that way.

Qyburn

EricMears said:

Original question was "Does anyone really class wood as a fossil fuel?".      Maybe not,  but it's just as bad !

Do you have figures to justify that? For example comparing the carbon impact of burning coal shipped in from the US or Australia, compared to burning locally sourced firewood, which you state is "just as bad".