ECP POPLA Response to their comments help please

ntkeeper

I have been getting help from members on pepipoo until now however the experts on there are too busy atm to help me further so I was searching elsewhere for advice and came across this forum.

Short version of what happened so far.... 3 cars parked in a pub pay and display car park. Total of 11 people between the 3 cars, none of them saw signs saying it was P&D. ECP have an ANPR camera at the pub which took a picture of each car reg plate entering and leaving the car park, no evidence supporting that the 3 drivers didn't buy a ticket. No PCN was left on their vehicles at the time, the first any of them knew about the PCN was when they got the letter through the post.
Sent standard 'non compliant NTK' recommended letter, got the appeal rejected by ECP and a POPLA code.

Sent off POPLA appeal with following points (much more detail given, this is short version);

• A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
• Euro Car Parks has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge. !
• Failure to deliver within 14 days under POFA 9(4), the Notice to Keeper was received too late. ! !
• Failure to specify the date on which the notice is sent.
• Notice to Keeper did not specify the period of parking to which it related.
• Vehicle Images contained in Parking Charge Notice
• The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from the entrance to the car park or from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself. !
• The unclear printed image of the sign that Euro Car Parks have sent fails to transparently warn of what the camera data will be used for.
• Euro Car Parks have provided no evidence that the camera system is reliable.
• Failure to comply with the data protection 'ICO Code of Practice' applicable to cameras
• No evidence of Landowner Authority

One of the registered keepers was let off as goodwill gesture due to them being a paying customer!

ECP have responded with their evidence. !They have included what they say is a report of transactions on that day, it has the date, times, amount paid, time it's for and start of reg numbers listed. The list starts with a time at the bottom being the earliest time, as you go up the list chronologically to the latest time, they have manually created it as it looks similar to this (have changed specific times so as not to identify keeper etc) ;

Date ! ! ! ! !Time ! !Paid ! ! Time for ! !Reg No.
30/11/19 ! 11:15 ! !£1.50 ! 1 hour ! ! AB12
30/11/19 ! 11:12 ! !£2.50 ! 2 hours ! BC13
30/11/19 ! 12:59 ! !£3.50 ! 3 hours ! CD14
30/11/19 ! 12:56 ! !£2.50 ! 2 hours ! EF15
30/11/19 ! 12:54 ! !£1.50 ! 1 hour ! GH16
30/11/19 ! 12:52 ! !£2.50 ! 2 hours ! JK17
30/11/19 ! 12:45 ! !£1.50 ! 1 hour ! LM18

They should have put 13:12 and 13:15 but they have clearly manually entered the times and accidentally written 11:12 and 11:15.... the vehicle entered at 11:20 and left at 12:17, the times they are showing are after the vehicle had been AND gone! So they have falsified evidence.

What I need help with now is if anyone can assist with checking through the rest of their response to see if there is anything more I can include in my (limited to 2000 characters) response to POPLA. !I have done a list of the points that ECP have not replied to which so far looks like this;

A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
ECP have not shown that the individual it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge.
Failure to deliver within 14 days.
Failure to specify the date on which the notice was sent.
Notice to Keeper did not specify the period of parking to which it related.
Vehicle Images contained in PCN were non-compliant (only reg plate shown with no time stamp ON photo). Further images supplied in POPLA appeal were not supplied on NTK.
Signs in car park are not prominent, clear or legible driving into car park and if parked in first space on left. Images from ECP POPLA appeal appear to show not at required height.
The unclear printed image of the sign that Euro Car Parks have sent fails to transparently warn of what the camera data will be used for.
Euro Car Parks have provided no evidence that the camera system is reliable.Transaction report of payments ECP give are falsified,they start at bottom of list with XXXX working upwards to what should have been XXXX,been manually entered wrongly as XXXX..Data provided is AFTER vehicle had been AND gone.
Failure to comply with the data protection 'ICO Code of Practice' applicable to cameras.
Insufficient Landowner Authority - generic copy & paste with no specific name to signature,this is not a copy of the original contract. Point 10 has been removed-why?States ECP can take legal action to recover charges from drivers charged for unauthorised parking. Does not state Keeper.This has been sent to Keeper.

---

I have a brain condition, what takes most people a short period of time to do takes me days to achieve. !Believe me I have done loads of research to get to this point, what I am asking for is expert advice on whether there is anything else in ECP's POPLA evidence which is wrong or I can contest.

In next post is everything from ECP POPLA evidence.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give

ntkeeper

(First there were contents pages and general info, not included as nothing to contest here)

1. Case Summary and Rule/Conditions

This location is managed by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology which
takes a picture of the vehicle entering and exiting the site, these pictures are timed and therefore
the duration of the stay can be calculated. All vehicle registration numbers are then matched
against the data produced by the various means of paying for parking and a list of registration
numbers where no payment has been made or where the motorist has stayed longer than the
period paid is produced. After requesting vehicle keeper details from the DVLA, a Notice to
keeper is sent to the keepers of the vehicles on this list. As a consequence at ANPR locations
there will be no PCN issued to the windscreen neither will there be photographic evidence of
the windscreen supplied in operator evidence packs.

Parking Charge Notice XXXX was issued to vehicle XXXX at the Euro Car Parks site at
XXXX for breach of terms and conditions: No valid pay and
display/permit was purchased.
XXXX car park operates an ANPR + P&D/Pay by Phone camera
controlled operation.
An official appeal representation was received on the XXXX 2019 where XXXX stated that he denies liability, is not willing to give the name of the driver.
Euro Car Parks then responded:

* The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR)
* Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and UK Serviceable address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid.
* If you were not the driver please provide the full details of the driver of the vehicle at the time the Parking Charge Notice was issued (full name and UK serviceable address ).
* Should you provide an incorrect address for service, we will pursue you for any parking charge amount that remains unpaid. Should you identify someone who denies they were the driver, we will pursue you for any parking charge amount that remains unpaid.
* Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculated their length of stay on site.
* When purchasing a pay and display ticket, you must enter the correct vehicle registration number (VRM) and this information is directed to the camera system.
* I can confirm that no pay and display ticket matching your VRM was purchased at the time of the terms and conditions.
* The signage is clear, a valid pay and display ticket must be purchased for the full duration of your stay on the car park.
* I can confirm the parking charge notice was issued correctly and remains payable.

2. Copy of Notice to Keeper (NTK) sent to the registered keeper’s address
(Copy of NTK, not included as not needed for this)


3. Registered Keeper details and Liability Trail

As the car park is camera controlled the vehicle details were forwarded to the DVLA to obtain the
registered keepers details. The DVLA had provided the following details as the registered keeper:
XXXX
XXXX

XXXX then appealed the PCN and declined to provide the details of the driver on
the day in question. As no other details have been provided, the liability for the notice remains
with XXXX.
Our PCN (Parking Charge Notice) is the first communication with the registered keeper – this is referred to as the Notice to Keeper or Notice to Owner
The PCN (NTK/NTO) has been checked by both the BPA and the IPC and we have confirmation
that our PCN (NTK/NTO) and has been approved as compliant with POFA
The PCN (NTK/NTO) has been checked by Gladstones Solicitors who specialise in assisting
private car park operators – legal advice and pre legal advice with regards signage and adhering to POFA and both code of practice
Please be advised once the registered keeper has been sent the PCN (NTK/NTO) if there is no response, payment, appeal, serviceable address of the driver – ECP process a Notice To Keeper – this is a “reminder letter” and sent in reference to the PCN (NTK/NTO) that has not been responded to.
If we are in receipt of a serviceable address of the driver – the PCN (NTK/NTO) is re-issued
If the registered keeper is in receipt of the PCN (NTK/NTO) and has passed to the driver and the driver appeals – we will respond to the appeal strictly following the code and ensure any/all communication is sent to the driver (we would not at this stage re-issue the PCN)
We have been advised that the above is standard practice for all private car park operators in regards to PCN (NTK/NTO) issued on Automatic Number Plate Recognition car parks.

4. Original representation sent by XXXX
(Copy of letter registered keeper sent to ECP, not included as not needed for this)

5. ECP notice of rejection to appeal
(Copy of letter ECPsent to RK, not included as not needed for this)

6. ECP response to POPLA appeal logged by XXXX

This location is managed by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology which takes a picture of the vehicle entering and exiting the site, these pictures are timed and therefore the duration of the stay can be calculated. All vehicle registration numbers are then matched against the data produced by the various means of paying for parking and a list of registration numbers where no payment has been made or where the motorist has stayed longer than the period paid is produced. After requesting vehicle keeper details from the DVLA, a Notice to keeper is sent to the keepers of the vehicles on this list. As a consequence at ANPR locations there will be no PCN issued to the windscreen neither will there be photographic evidence of the windscreen supplied in operator evidence packs.

Parking Charge Notice XXXX was issued to vehicle XXXX for breach of terms and conditions: No valid pay and display/permit was purchased at XXXX. This car park operates an ANPR + P&D/Pay by Phone operation, therefore all vehicles are required to purchase a valid ticket for the full duration of stay within the car park.

Statement: He states that a compliant Notice to Keeper was never served no Keeper Liability can apply, poor signage, privacy statement, no evidence of landowner authority, no camera evidence. Euro Car Parks can confirm the following: Section 18.3 of the British Parking Association’s (BPA) code of practice explains that signs “must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signage on site is clear, when parking on private land it is the driver’s responsibility to read the signage displayed and parked accordance with the terms and conditions as stated. Euro Car Parks have provided photographic evidence showing that the appellant remained at the site for 57 minutes (Figure 1) Signage is visible when entering and inside of the car park and when entering private land it would be the driver’s responsibilty to read the terms and conditions and adhere to them. (Figure 2 – See Section 7). Below is the transaction report of payments; there are no transactions matching XXXX:

XXXX XXXX
XXXX XXXX
XXXX XXXX
XXXX XXXX
XXXX XXXX
XXXX XXXX

Drivers details have been censored due to Data Protection.

According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a
reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended;
before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally
12 No Pay & Display permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 Minutes.

* Figure 3 confirms that the NTK is PoFA compliant.
* Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price.
* The contract (signage) clearly states the extra charges are that the driver will incur and have to pay if they decide to break the contract terms − for example, by parking longer than the time
paid for or exceeding the maximum time limit applicable.
* Automatic Number Plate Recognition systems are effectively image processing and microprocessor devices with an internal reference clock based around a set of components referred to as the ‘Real Time Clock chipset’ or RTC. The chipset uses a quartz crystal reference source and will provide a reliable time reference dependant on a drift characteristic determined by variations in local camera temperature. High fluctuations in local ambient can cause the RTC to drift as much as 30 seconds a month and to counteract this an NTP server is utilised. The NTP server is effectively a computer situated in a control room and takes a reference time source from a GPS satellite and provides a hyper accurate time reference. All camera systems operated by ECP are configured to request a time synchronisation from the NTP on a sixty second basis. This ensures that all cameras have a universal time reference which is accurate to a few thousandths of a second. Cameras also report a ‘heartbeat’ to our back office environment, again on a sixty second basis, and this is used to establish camera operation; logs of these transactions from all cameras are retained for approximately six months. On capture of an ANPR read this is transmitted to a similar back office environment where the time difference between that tagged on the raw capture and the ‘real time’ of the servers is again tested.
* All ANPR cameras used by ECP are compliant under the home office approval framework as stated under NAAS/NASP.
* There is also the option to use the Pay by Phone on the site.
* Figure 4 shows the contract between ECP and XXXX

(Pics of vehicles, signs, car park included here, not included as not required for this)

Appendix A

British Parking Association Code of Practice

1 Overview

It is hereby noted that Eurco Car Parks Limited (ECP) are members of the British Parking Association (BPA) Approved Operator Scheme (AOS).

This scheme operates a Code of Practice (COP) in order to maintain Parking Enforcement on private land to the highest standard of professional standards.

The COP requires protocols to be met regarding the details of operating agreements between contractors and Clients/Clients agents, the methods used to enforce parking terms and conditions and the characteristics of signs being used in order to inform visitors, customer and staff of terms and conditions subsisting on the site.

2 Requirements

The following information details the steps required in order to comply with the COP in relation to the construction and maintenance of agreements between contracting paries.

3 Authorisation

Written authorisation by the Client of their appointed agent must be received by ECP prior to any work or services commencing.

4 Compliance

The signing of this document confirms that the Client requires ECP to comply with the COP.

5 Definition

The boundaries of the land must be clearly defined and the Client confirms that enforcement and parking control is taking place on private land.

6 Conditions and Restrictions

Any particular conditions or restrictions must be clearly set out which may be relevant to the services provided, for example, if there are planning restrictions (section 106) or restrictions upon hours of operation or methods of parking management/tariff structures to be applied, the details must be included in the agreement.

7 Types of vehicles

Any special conditions that may apply to particular types of vehicles (heavy goods, coaches, electric vehicles, motorcycles) or any special conditions that may apply to particular user groups (disabled drivers, drivers issued with permits, patients at hospitals), must be covered in detail.

8 Signage

The party responsible for providing, installing and maintaining signage must be clearly noted. For the avoidance of doubt, signs must comply with the standards laid down in the COP, any post mountain signs installed in areas accessible by the public, must be a minimum of 1.9 meters from the lowest edge of the sign to the ground.

9 Definition of services

Agreements must clearly define the bounds of products and services that are to be delivered by each party to the agreement.

10 Legal Action

If any form of subsequent legal action is required in relation to contravention of parking terms and conditions, authorisation for such action must be issued to ECP inwriting.

11 Contravening the COP

The COP is designed to raise standards and to provide fair and reasonable treatment of visitors to enforced parking areas. In order to ensure the COP is complied with by Approved Operators, a set of sanctions are contained in the COP. These sanctions operated int he same way as do driving offences, if an AOS member receives sanctions beyond the permitted threshold over a stated period of time, the risk expulsion from the AOS.

The further consequences will be the withdrawal of the electronic link with the DVLA. This would prevent the continuation of applications to the DVLA to received registered keeper details thereby significantly disrupting services.

Authorisation Instructions

1 XXXX (the Client) hereby authorised ECP (collectively the parties) to carry out Parking Enforcement at XXXX as delineated on the plan attached between the parties and in the manner set out in the agreement.
2 XXXX(the Client) hereby requires ECP to comply with all the aspects of the COP as published and amended from time to time by the AOS and administered by the BPA.
3 XXXX(the Client) confirms that any special conditions or restrictions regarding the services which are to be provided by either party will be covered in detail within the agreement between the parties.
4 ECP will ensure that signage will comply with the COP. Installation of the signage will be provided by XXXX (on behalf of ECP).
5 The services to be provided by the parties will be fully detailed in the agreement running from XXXX, 5 year automatic renewal.
6 XXXX(the Client) hereby authorises ECP to take legal action to recover charges from drivers charged for unauthorised parking.
7 XXXX(the Client) hereby agrees to cooperate with and support ECP so as to ensure that the COP is complied with.
8 XXXX(the Client) understand and confirm any data collected by ECPwill used only for parking control and parking enforcement only, and any such data can only be obtained subject to ECP being compliant member of the AOS or a member of an Accredited Trade Organisation recognised by the DVLA.
9 Employers and Public Liability Insurance will be provided by ECP
11 ECP will record and train any relevant activities and incidents related to this site
12 ECP confirms that we do not use misleading media with the intent of suggesting we operate under statute.
13 ECP will not use decoy vehicles on the site to encourage people to park in breach of the terms and conditions apply.


(a signature has been written here) DIRECTOR
Signed on behalf of
EURO CAR PARKS

DATE XXXX

(a signature has been written here) DIRECTOR
Signed on behalf of
XXXX

DATE XXXX



(PICTURES OF SIGNS AND CAR PARK)

Coupon-mad

They should have put 13:12 and 13:15 but they have clearly manually entered the times and accidentally written 11:12 and 11:15.... the vehicle entered at 11:20 and left at 12:17, the times they are showing are after the vehicle had been AND gone! So they have falsified evidence.

Stick with the above. Tell POPLA it is clearly a false instrument created manually because the timings at the top make no sense, as they purport to relate to transactions before noon, yet the timings listed underneath those manually altered 'records' are for the period from 12.45 & 12.59pm and the timings get later towards the top of the list...until suddenly the top two have been altered back to morning again!

Now POPLA are not very good at sussing things like that, hence why I spelt it out as above...like you are explaining the problem to a child!

Do not complicate your comments with other stuff that is not a winner.

Why do you say the PCN (first letter) was non-compliant? What was the parking event date and what was the issued date on the first letter (NOT NECESSARILY THE ONE CALLED THE NTK)?

ECP usually send it in time...so what are the actual dates involved?

The_Deep

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten of these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra work.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT]

ntkeeper

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Stick with the above. Tell POPLA it is clearly a false instrument created manually because the timings at the top make no sense, as they purport to relate to transactions before noon, yet the timings listed underneath those manually altered 'records' are for the period from 12.45 & 12.59pm and the timings get later towards the top of the list...until suddenly the top two have been altered back to morning again!

Now POPLA are not very good at sussing things like that, hence why I spelt it out as above...like you are explaining the problem to a child!

Do not complicate your comments with other stuff that is not a winner.

Why do you say the PCN (first letter) was non-compliant? What was the parking event date and what was the issued date on the first letter (NOT NECESSARILY THE ONE CALLED THE NTK)?

ECP usually send it in time...so what are the actual dates involved?

Thank you for your help

Point taken re: timings part, most relevant info.

The first letter received from ECP was the NTK on the 5/9/19.
Date of Event was 21/8/19. Notice to Keeper was not "issued" according to the letter from ECP until 30/8/19, 9 days after Date of Event. Notice to Keeper received on 5/9/19, 15 days after Date of Event, this is therefore a failure to deliver within 14 days under POFA 9(4)
Also, in POPLA appeal it also stated;Euro Car Parks have provided no proof when the Notice to Keeper entered the postal system. This is contrary to the requirements of Paragraph 9(2)(i);
(2)(i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).
The Notice to Keeper does not specify the date on which the notice was sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case). Stating 'Date Issued' does not provide proof the notice was sent on this date. This fails the requirement to state the date SENT or GIVEN. This Notice to Keeper with 'Date Issued' could be one of a printed batch of Notice to Keepers which have been prepared several days before they are actually posted via Royal Mail. There was no notice given or left on the vehicle at the time of the event.

ntkeeper

Thank you for this info, will certainly follow up with local MP, separate issue however we were scammed by Viagogo with fake tickets, contacted local MP who forwarded to Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, about a year later Viagogo have had all sorts of sanctions and investigations etc so all those voices made a difference! Plus, we got our money back

I am confident that one day soon all this private parking companies thing will be sorted, they won't be able to con people out of money. It's just horrid that people have to go through so much stress to get things sorted

Coupon-mad

I would leave out the stuff about the date the NTK was received as you can't prove that. Just go with what I said.

ntkeeper

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I would leave out the stuff about the date the NTK was received as you can't prove that. Just go with what I said.

Thanks, I agree, no evidence to prove receipt of NTK etc.
I have also got some help from pepipoo with finding landowner authority contract is lacking essential detail and that signage in car park from a drivers perspective is not clear if parking in a specific part of the car park.

Very much appreciate your advice

ntkeeper

Ok,POPLA comments hopefully complete;

ECP have clearly used false “Transaction Report of Payments” in Section 6 of POPLA evidence,report has been created manually because timings make no sense.Timings at the top purport to relate to transactions BEFORE noon,yet timings listed underneath those manually altered 'records' are for the period from AFTER noon yet START with 12:59 and work BACKWARDS to 12:45pm. So, the timings get later towards the top of the list...until suddenly the top two have been altered back to morning again-The list is read from the bottom to the top - 11:15 11:12 12:59 12:56 12:54 12:52 12:45 - the last two times SHOULD read 13:12 13:15 but have clearly been MANUALLY ‘altered’ incorrectly. Therefore ALL these transactions are AFTER the vehicle had been and gone from the car park. Evidence clearly falsified and is completely incorrect and irrelevant.

Incomplete Landowner Authority contract - ECP have failed to include the Contractual Site Plan WITHIN Figure 4 of their evidence under “Authorisation Instructions”. Site plans are included completely SEPARATELY under Section 7 but NOT within contract. Contract is therefore incomplete, ECP have no proven authority to manage the area the vehicle was parked in.

The “Authorisations Instructions contract” have no specific printed name to XXXX pub signature. Anyone could have signed this document, there is nothing to prove it was signed and authorised by a genuine XXXX employee as no name is given, merely a squiggled illegible signature. This contract could have been falsely created for this evidence. No paper trail back to an individual can be followed.

Signs in car park are NOT prominent, clear or legible when driving into XXXX car park from XXXX road and when parked in first spaces on the left as you enter car park, you enter the XXXX pub itself from the same side of road as the entrance to the car park without passing ANY signs informing you it is a Pay and Display Car Park.

Thank you for any help given (also posted on pepipoo as I know it's Fri afternoon and everyone is rightfully busy getting ready for the weekend, I have until Sun to post my comments on POPLA!)

Umkomaas

Too many characters - you're restricted to 2,000. You've used 2,131, so just a bit of trimming needed.

ntkeeper

Thank you Umkomaas, the unredacted version fits in POPLA with 11 characters left somehow lol