PCN to keeper complete mistake

Mark8c

Hi there, I have read the newbie threads but there is a bewildering amount and variety of info. So I wonder if anyone could please help me?

My issue is simple NCP Ltd sent me a PCN to keeper notice stating i'd not paid the parking fee however i did, and and I have both bank account and the original parking ticket to prove it. The place in question used automatic number plate recognition along with a separate system where you key in your number plate and pay. The incident was 31 Aug and the date of sending of the PCN was 7th Oct. There was no windscreen notification, this was an initial letter (so 37 days elapsed).

So far I have submitted an online dispute such that it was an excessive time ago, I can't recall who was the driver and neither can I tell from the images they provided, plus i sent them a screenshot of my account showing the parking money as paid to them on the date of the supposed non-payment. I am currently awaiting their decision over the PCN (14 days I think the online thing said, however i'm finding it quite stressful as their PCN letter talks about incurring extra costs, debt collection, credit score damage etc.

My question is under Data Protection law I would have thought they needed to properly check their machine records before getting my details from the DVLA, i.e ensure via electronic and back up manual checks that i had not paid (except I definitely have - by contactless debit card !) Furthermore I'm surprised if legally they are allowed to send an initial PCN letter after such a long period ? I have since dug through my bins and found the ticket - the numberplate i keyed in is correct so basically not even a typo (which is what i first wondered may have happened) so this kinda massively proves they have not taken even a jot of care to check their records properly before obtaining my personal details ?

Do i have to give them time to respond ie basically endure another 2 wks+ of stress and worry, or can I just go straight ahead and try to figure out if I can raise and get a small claims judgement against them for breaking data protection ?

KeithP

Mark8c wrote: »

Do i have to give them time to respond ie basically endure another 2 wks+ of stress and worry, or can I just go straight ahead and try to figure out if I can raise and get a small claims judgement against them for breaking data protection ?

I know which I would find more stressful, and it is not sitting patiently and waiting for their inevitable appeal refusal.

You will easily win the next round - your poPLA appeal.

Mark8c

KeithP wrote: »

I know which I would find more stressful, and it is not sitting patiently and waiting for their inevitable appeal refusal.

You will easily win the next round - your poPLA appeal.

I checked POPLA but it suggests I need to wait for the NCP rejection prior to appealing with them so this route does seem to require the 2wks+ stress wait which i was hoping to avoid.

Please can I ask though - why do I need to appeal to a third party organisation to validate anything when I have now found the parking ticket i paid for at the time of the supposed non-payment event, and therefore there is zero chance that i can be successfully fined ? I would have thought on this occasion I can straight away go for a small claims case for Data Protection breach or are there certain steps i need to go though first? Could i go straight to a letter before action ?

You stated that there will be an inevitable appeal refusal but I am not no sure, based on the fact I sent them account screenshot proof of paying for a ticket. And nevertheless I'd still like to peruse them for Data Protection breach even if they realize their mistake and uphold my initial appeal, or am i not allowed to do that if they drop the case - probably claiming as a gesture of goodwill (but as far as i'm concerned the damage, stress and data breach is already done) ?

Le_Kirk

why do I need to appeal to a third party organisation to validate anything when I have now found the parking ticket i paid for at the time of the supposed non-payment event

Because the NPC will not get paid if they allow your appeal, they need to keep terrorising you in the belief that you will crumble and pay. Of course, you won't.

Umkomaas

Can I ask why do I need to appeal to a third party organisation to validate anything when I have already found the parking ticket i paid for at the time

Almost every PPC rejects every initial appeal, there’s no money for them if they uphold it. It’s the way this scamdustry operates. But you do get a ‘second chance’ (with a BPA operator as NCP are) via POPLA. It’s your choice if you utilise that chance. If not, you won’t have 2 weeks of uncertainty, there will be 6 years of it, including debt collector hassle and a reasonable chance that somewhere along that line NCP will sue you through the courts.

But you have an almost 100% chance of winning this at POPLA based on ‘no keeper liability’ (because of the gap in the dates) provided you did not, even inadvertently, reveal the driver’s identification. Can you show us exactly what you wrote please? This will help us to help you in determining your upcoming POPLA appeal strategy.

You stated that there will be an inevitable appeal refusal but I am not no sure, based on the fact I sent them proof of paying for a ticket.

I’ll eat my leg if your initial appeal is upheld!

And nevertheless I'd still like to peruse them for Data Protection breach even if the realize their mistake and uphold my initial appeal, or am i not allowed to do that ?

Of course you’re allowed to do it, but you’ll need a strong case, much stronger than righteous indignation. If a PPC suspects that an infringement has occurred, the law allows them to access the registered keeper’s data from the DVLA as the first step to enquiring of the RK who the driver was.

Here’s something to read:

https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/data-protection-act/

If you take that forward, I suggest you seek further help from a legal advice forum - like LegalBeagles - as it will have become action well outside the general expertise of a private parking forum.

MistyZ

Mark8c wrote: »

why do I need to appeal to a third party organisation to validate anything when I have now found the parking ticket i paid for at the time of the supposed non-payment event, and therefore there is zero chance that i can be successfully fined ?

I don't know whether there's any mileage in bringing a small claim.

However confirmation that there's 'zero chance' of paying the invoice could take a hell of a long time to achieve. NCP have 6 years in which to take this to court .... much better to get it killed off at POPLA. POPLA is most definitely worth doing in this instance and while there are no guarantees, with care it would have a very good chance.

You may feel that there's 'zero' chance yet at the same time you're finding this very stressful. The stress factor helps deliver cash into the hands of the PPCs regardless of whether there has actually been any contravention.

Do whatever you need to do to get this out of the way ... POPLA is an option so why not take it?

MistyZ

Umkomaas wrote: »

But you have an almost 100% chance of winning this at POPLA based on ‘no keeper liability’ (because of the gap in the dates) provided you did not, even inadvertently, reveal the driver’s identification. Can you show us exactly what you wrote please? This will help us to help you in determining your upcoming POPLA appeal strategy.

This is important .... reading thru' your opening post I suspect that the driver's identity was revealed or at least implied. (Not that it would wreck the chances of a POPLA win).

Mark8c

Umkomaas wrote: »

But you have an almost 100% chance of winning this at POPLA based on ‘no keeper liability’ (because of the gap in the dates) provided you did not, even inadvertently, reveal the driver’s identification. Can you show us exactly what you wrote please? This will help us to help you in determining your upcoming POPLA appeal strategy. .

These 4 points are what i put in my online appeal to the initial PCN notice . but I don't really get why (having now found the ticket) that its not a simple open and shut case of their mistake and therefore data protection breach and dropping the fine of course ? I also don't get why in a clear cut case of NCP error why it would even matter if i had remembered if i was the driver ?

1) According to my bank statement my debit card was used to pay your parking fee of £2.50 on the Sat 31st by contactless card purchase (although your bank did not process it until the Tues).

2) The issuance date of the PCN is an excessive time since the event (approx 37 days).

3) I cannot remember (or tell from the photos) if I was the driver at the time of the claimed event, it's too long ago and the photos don't show a face.

4) As the fee was definitely paid im confirming i wont be paying any fine. Not sure whats going on with your systems or late notifications but im glad it was paid by card as you can't expect people to keep receipts as long as you have left it.

Mark8c

MistyZ wrote: »

However confirmation that there's 'zero chance' of paying the invoice could take a hell of a long time to achieve. NCP have 6 years in which to take this to court .... much better to get it killed off at POPLA. POPLA is most definitely worth doing in this instance and while there are no guarantees, with care it would have a very good chance. Do whatever you need to do to get this out of the way ... POPLA is an option so why not take it?

I see ! Thank you that was helpful to me and clear. Ok so i have to wait for the NCP rejection and progress to POPLA from there.

This has really highlighted to me how messed the system is. Im shocked and surprised in clear case of NCP error they are allowed to get away with this kind of harassment.

Ralph-y

"but I don't really get why (having now found the ticket) that its not a simple open and shut case"


this is something we see all the time ....newbies come on the forum and expect justice to be upheld.... common-sense to be seen ... ... companies to behave ethically ...


sadly the murky world of private parking is ... according to our MPs is a scam.



some quotes from Hansard ....



''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.


the forum has been built up gradually over many years to try and give the best help it can to those caught in the web.... even when sometimes the advice may seem counter intuitive.



keep up the fight and good luck


Ralph:cool:

Umkomaas

Mark8c wrote: »

These 4 points are what i put in my online appeal to the initial PCN notice . but I don't really get why (having now found the ticket) that its not a simple open and shut case of their mistake and therefore data protection breach and dropping the fine of course ? I also don't get why in a clear cut case of NCP error why it would even matter if i had remembered if i was the driver ?

1) According to my bank statement my debit card was used to pay your parking fee of £2.50 on the Sat 31st by contactless card purchase (although your bank did not process it until the Tues).

2) The issuance date of the PCN is an excessive time since the event (approx 37 days).

3) I cannot remember (or tell from the photos) if I was the driver at the time of the claimed event, it's too long ago and the photos don't show a face.

4) As the fee was definitely paid im confirming i wont be paying any fine. Not sure whats going on with your systems or late notifications but im glad it was paid by card as you can't expect people to keep receipts as long as you have left it.

That’s ok, you haven’t blown any toes off with that appeal, so get your POPLA code and on your way to a POPLA win.

In preparation, please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3 which advises on how to construct a POPLA appeal. It’s nowhere near as daunting as it initially appears as much of your work is already done for you, simply a case of digging it out then stitching it together into a sensible package.

In addition, why not read some successful NCP POPLA appeals by using keywords NCP POPLA and doing a forum search.

HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:

Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.