PCN for NHS staff member with valid permit, not enough spaces to park hence the fine- any chance?

Teacholic

Hello,

I love this forum and managed to find a good amount information about my problem. I still have a few questions hence I opened a new thread. I hope that you can make some suggestions

I want to get an opinion whether people feel I would be able to have Parking Charge Notice (PCN) cancelled on POPLA level as unfair PCN? I have no intention of, nor time for court case ). I would like to appeal it on the grounds of being unfair

I work for the NHS in London. We have there designated staff parking areas regulated by CP Plus LTD. I have a valid Staff Permit acquired via my Trust.

Facts: I was issued PCN as “did not park in designated parking space”. I have previously received a Warning from CP Plus Ltd for the same reason. As it was a second time I got caught I received PCN from them.

Let me explain, why I feel it was unfair.

There has been a long-standing issue with not enough parking spaces fro the staff members. There has been issued too many permits for the actual actual availability of themof the parking spaces. Staff has been parking on yellow lines, part street and part pavement , on pavements and like in my situation on a grass in front of one of a Trust’s building. It has been okay for a long time but lately CEO of the Trust issued a reminder that people cannot park on yellow lines as it would block access for Fire Brigade Brigades if there was a fire. Since then, many of us received Warnings or PCNs.

Apart from the shortage of the parking spaces, often patients that come for their appointments by car (usually lasting under one hour) park in staff bays (there’s a separate paid visitors car park). There’s no cameras and parking rules are reinforced by parking staff member that walks around and checks whether the cars comply with their T&Cs. He normally does it once, max twice a day. Within that time, many patients would use staff spaces and when I arrive to work they might be taken by them. They’ll be gone in half an hour, max aan hour and Ihave to scramble for parking space or park in not designated areasareas. I sometimes would come/back in an hour or so and manage to move my car to designated area a as they free up Unfortunately, I was not able to do it last time. It’s frustrating as they do not deter patients successfully due to their ineffective car park monitoring system.

I am wondering whether you feel that I have a good chance to cancel the fine under unfair ticket rationale. It is a frustrating on-going problem that I don’t think my Trust will be sympathetic towards (given recent instructions about yellow lines parking).

As this private company is a part of BPA, I could appeal under ‘one size fits all’ to get POPLA code. I am wondering about a few things. Firstly the PCN says that 14 days from the date of issue they will contact DVL to get my details. So I will not be able to use templat that I avoid details of the driver and focus on being the keeper when I apply 26 days after the date of the notice (as per advice in Newbie thread). Secondly, as my argument is that I am staff member with a valid permit I paid for for a year of access, I might need to supply my name and car permit number anyway. Thirdly, none of the evidence given in the example of the template talks about evidence for parking in not designated areas. I could argue no loss, as I have valid permit. And no obstruction as I parked on a grass by the windows of a building, not blocking the road in case of fire fighters car needs to get through. Lastly, I am wondering whether it’s not more employer /employment issue since it is the Trust that took my money for the permit but did not ensure that there is enough parking space for staff members.

Please advise whether it’s worth the bother or shall I just pay the discounted fee of £25 within 14 days of the PCN date. I probably will have no support nor understanding from the Trust. I’m working in one of the slowest and unhelpful Trust when it comes to administration and operations

Your comments are much appreciated

Fruitcake

It is not a fine.

You should edit your post to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, who are two different people.
The Keeper is a staff member and has a permit for The Driver(s) to use. The Driver got a NTD and presumably handed it to The Keeper.

There is a lot of editing to do.

You can either pay (and again the next time, and again and again,) or fight it. If you decide on the latter then The Keeper should now appeal using the template in blue from the NEWBIES, unaltered around day 26.

If ANPR scameras are used, the scammers have to apply to the DVLA and get the NTK to The Keeper no later than day 14.
Where ANPR is not used, the scammers cannot apply to the DVLA until day 28, and must get the NTK to The Keeper by day 56.
In both cases, the date of the event is day zero.

This is why you should appeal a NTD around day 26, online, just before they think about applying to the DVLA.

If/when it is rejected and you get a PoPA code, use all the appeal points available to you from post 3 of the NEWBIES. You will not find any mention of the PCN being unfair.

Get pics of the site and signage as soon as possible for your PoPLA appeal.

Complain to the CEO that the scammers are not doing their job by failing to keeping non staff out of the car park. A modern hospital would have a pass to open a barrier to prevent this.

Also complain to your MP about this unregulated scam. This country needs to keep all the NHS staff that it can.

fisherjim

Firstly it's not a "fine"


Forget all that unfair tosh it will not work, you need to follow the tried and tested route that the newbies thread contains, get a POPLA code and then use the technical arguments with them, not the unfair, what happened on the day, lack of spaces arguments they can't and won't consider that.


Of course it's the trusts fault, but they are cash strapped, and won't improve car parking, they would rather you left your car at home
If your parking agreement is like my wife's they state they can't guarantee spaces, and recommend car sharing.


You were in an unusual and lucky position of being warned by a PPC before, without all the hassle, maybe if you can't be bothered to fight this all the way you should just pay their £25, if you lose at POPLA you will have it hanging over you for six years if you don't pay up, it's your call.

The_Deep

I would like to appeal it on the grounds of being unfair


No, you have to appeal it on legal/technical grounds at PoPLA. A judge will/may consider mitigation Have you read this?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

Nine times out of ten of these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies



.

NeilCr

As suggested a bit of a difficult one as you were warned

We had a fire safety inspection of our estate. It was quite illuminating (!) as their access routes to some of our buildings were different to what we thought - especially in terms of our access road. Might be that parking in front of a building could be a problem that you don't see

You can only follow the process laid out by the previous posters.

Umkomaas

Hit CP Plus with the blue text initial appeal template from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1. They usually cancel when they see it.

Forget about fairness/unfairness - neither exist in a scamdustry hell bent on bleeding dry anyone who crosses its path.

Teacholic

Fruitcake wrote: »

It is not a fine.

You should edit your post to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, who are two different people.
The Keeper is a staff member and has a permit for The Driver(s) to use. The Driver got a NTD and presumably handed it to The Keeper.

There is a lot of editing to do.

I’m not sure I am understanding the reason to edit the first post on this thread. I can see the significance for it when you actually appeal. Do you mind explaining the reasons behind your suggestion? I saw many post that users are explaining what happened and who did what. Unless, I misunderstood your point, In which case I hope you can correct me.

Fruitcake wrote: »

You can either pay (and again the next time, and again and again,) or fight it. If you decide on the latter then The Keeper should now appeal using the template in blue from the NEWBIES, unaltered around day 26.

That probably will be ongoing problem and I might receive another PCN from CP Plus in the future, despite my greatest efforts. Provided that appeal with CP Plus or POPLA is successful, will I be able to use the same route to challenge future tickets or is it just one off thing.

Fruitcake wrote: »

If/when it is rejected and you get a PoPA code, use all the appeal points available to you from post 3 of the NEWBIES. You will not find any mention of the PCN being unfair.

I think I would probably able to use the inappropriate small signage, no landowner rights and NTK not sent if they don’t access DVLA after 14 days somehow after I appeal on 26th day of the PCN. Would tat be enough?

Will CP Plus will provide me with POPLA code when thy decline my appeal or I need to specifically ask for it when I m appealing for the first time? The original ‘all site fits all’ appeal does not ask for POPLA code. I saw other templates on the forum that were asking for POPLA code.

Sorry to posy the the template in here. However, I think it’ll help in ensuring clarity what we are discussing. The advise I got from Umkomaas was to use the template 1 below. Also, it seems that I’d does not matter that the examples of evidence I request does not apply to my situation as it is just formality to get to POPLA? Am I understanding it well or shall I ask for the evidence of what is moe relevant to this situation: picture of the car being in a non designated area?

Template 1:

Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,
(My first and last name) - registered keeper, my postal address (that the car is registered under).

Template 2 I found on this forum, it sis for POPLA code.

Dear Sirs

Re: Notice to Keeper, dated <date>

I am in receipt of the above in relation to a Parking Charge Notice issued on <date>. For the avoidance of doubt I am the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned.

I wish to appeal against the issue of the Parking Charge Notice on the following bases:

a) The debt is denied
b) The charge does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss and is therefore unenforceable at law
c) The car park signage does not comply to the requirements of the British Parking Association Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice
d) You do not have any authority or rights or insufficient authority or rights to offer contracts to park and/or enforce charges.

Please therefore cancel the above charge forthwith or supply me with a POPLA code so that I might appeal to them.

Yours faithfully

Fruitcake wrote: »

Get pics of the site and signage as soon as possible for your PoPLA appeal

Gotcha! Will make sure to make the sizing of the letters clear. Their signage at the hospital are like essays from what I remember (If I am thinking about the right signs!) - nothing like Bevis case signage.

Teacholic

The_Deep wrote: »

I would like to appeal it on the grounds of being unfair


No, you have to appeal it on legal/technical grounds at PoPLA. A judge will/may consider mitigation Have you read this?

Your link for Department of Health and Social Care. As a new member I cannot pot them

I guess if I am appealing to CP Plus that the signage was not big enough and they have no legal rights, it’s difficult then to put mitigating circumstance to judge that parking was too full and it’ systematic problem - it contradicts each other. I cnnot be unaware of their t&Cs as the letters were too small and consciously decide to break their T&Cs to park in not allowed areas as there is issue with parking spaces. Just a thought as I don’t want to go to court with that anyway.

It might be worth local MP looks into that to help retain the NHS staff - as it is off putting and some will end up parking outside hospital and commuting longer. Add low pay and pressures of the NHS and its no brainier some will want to work for private sector instead without needing to deal with reinforcement of their basic working conditions :mad:

From the link you pasted, I got very interested in:”
Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only”. It seems that Trusts breaks this point.

AND ... “Details of charges, concessions and additional charges should be well publicised including at car park entrances, wherever payment is made and inside the hospital. “ I don’t think they mention how much are the charges. However, there might be wording about being penalised and receiving a charge if T&Cs are broken. I could use this website in POPLA appeal, don’t you think?

Le_Kirk

The reason for editing your first post is probably that it gives away who was driving. If you want to appeal as keeper, without the driver being known, it is difficult to do so when you give it away at the outset. The PPCs are know to trawl the forum looking for defendants to trip themselves up and can and have used the forum post as evidence in court.

Fruitcake

Your initial post still has far too much personal information and uses the first person singular where it should not. I did tell you to only refer to The Driver and The Keeper.

The Keeper has protections in law that The Driver does not.
Parking scammers read these fora and there may well be enough information on this thread to identify the driver.

You don't have to take my advice, but I STRONGLY suggest you edit your post NOW, rather than waste time before asking why.

Pilot: - EJECT!
Navigator: - Why? … *splat*

As for the two templates you found, you have been advised to use the one in blue text from post 1 of the NEWBIES.
The second template you found, and the gods only knows where you found it, should be wiped from the face of the earth. It is old and at least 4 years out of date.

Most of the other questions you raised in post # 7 are already answered in the NEWBIES. You are asked to read it forst to save us having to answer the same questions over and over that are already answered there.
It is not something you can read and digest quickly, or from a single reading.
Take your time. Only read the parts that are relevant. These are, not identifying the driver (either on here or in your appeals), your initial appeal, your PoPLA appeal, your complaints to the CEO and your MP.

You especially need to read the PoFA 2012 requirements regarding dates as it is obvious you don't understand them at all, even though I did explain them in post # 2

Write out or print off the acronyms from post 5 of the NEWBIES.

It is still not a fine.

The_Deep

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles