Who is the defendant at court stage? Driver/ keeper

Katie1111

Hey,

I received a PCN for parking in a ‘no parking zone’. The notice was soaking wet as it had been on the floor in a puddle so it was ineligible. I thought I’d wait for the notice to be sent in the post and appeal it once it came.

My dad is the registered keeper of the car but he isn’t insured to drive it. I should be able to support that he wasn’t driving with my insurance docs.

Nothing was received in the post so I didn’t think anymore of it until my dad received a LBC letter. He hadn’t updated the log book address so the PCN’s and all correspondence was being sent to an old address.

I submitted an appeal on behalf of my dad and followed the guidance not to mention the drivers name, I only stated the keepers name.

I have now just read a thread in response to LBC that you should notify them of who the driver is and you can get a transfer of liability. Seemingly, I won’t be able to appeal the fine as me as I’ve technically already had the notice on my windscreen.

In their PCN that we never received it says “If you were not the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked or if the vehicle was stolen prior to the beginning of the period of parking which is the subject of this Notice, please let us know. If you were not the driver we ask you to supply the full name and current serviceable postal address of the driver so that we may address this request to them.” But I’ve only just noticed this now.

We have a court date for December and my dad has put me as a witness. In the letter of defence we only name my dad as the keeper (no mention of the driver).

Is it too late to tell the company that he wasn’t driving? What will happen when this gets to court stage? I read something else earlier on here about irrelevant defences and ‘not the driver’ was listed there. But is it different if the defendant isn’t actually the driver (and not just the driver trying to ‘make up’ a defence).

Thanks for any comments, not sure where to turn to next.

waamo

Naming the driver will be throwing them under a bus. If the ppc don't rely on POFA, and many don't, the registered keeper can't be touched.

henrik777

Who is the defendant at court stage? Driver/ keeper

Neither. The defendant is the person named as such on the claim form, upon whom the court papers were served.

Fruitcake

The driver's identity should not be revealed except in specific circumstances, which is not the case here.

As above, a lot will depend on whether the scammers are relying on the PoFA 2012 to transfer liability to the keeper.
The driver can't be the defendant if the scammers don't know who it is, and you shouldn't tell them.
The keeper may be the defendant if liability has been transferred by complying with the PoFA.

Katie1111

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean about the liability with PoFA. Are we to bring this up in court? Or just still defend our case without recognising who was driving?

waamo

Katie1111 wrote: »

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean about the liability with PoFA. Are we to bring this up in court? Or just still defend our case without recognising who was driving?

At the top of this board is a thread that tells Newbies to read it first. You really need to read it carefully. It explains the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) and keeper liability.

Coupon-mad

He hadn’t updated the log book address so the PCN’s and all correspondence was being sent to an old address.

He needs to address that sharpish with the DVLA. It is illegal not to update a car's registered address and he could have missed all sorts of PCNs you or other drivers may have incurred, and he could get a £1000 real fine from the DVLA if he doesn't sort it!

Katie1111 wrote: »

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean about the liability with PoFA. Are we to bring this up in court? Or just still defend our case without recognising who was driving?

Your Dad (the D, not you!) needs to read more threads, as this is key to a keeper defence and we are unable to type out from scratch stuff that's already fully covered in the NEWBIES FAQS sticky thread (see my signature for where to click as I will not give a link to a sticky thread!).

Hope you are not reading this forum on a phone, if so, stop and use it properly on a PC or laptop, you will be amazed what you have missed if so. A person facing a court claim as a keeper who was not driving, needs to read and understand the POFA, and why they might not be liable in law.

We have a court date for December and my dad has put me as a witness. In the letter of defence we only name my dad as the keeper

What did your Dad's defence say exactly? Show us the wording (he did keep a copy, yes)?

Does he realise the letter tells him to soon submit his WS and evidence?

Why are you appearing as a witness, why throw your name and address in? Would it not be better for him to go as keeper and gen up on the keeper liability law and expose it if the PPC has not complied?

Which PPC?

Which car park? We know a lot about the locations.

What circumstances/reason for the PCN?

Katie1111

Defence:

IN THE COUNTY COURT

BETWEEN:
Parking and Property Management Ltd (Claimant) -and-
XxxxxxDefendant)
1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.
2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration Xxxxxxx of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on Rushgrove Street, London, SE18 5DP.
3. Agreement for parking was sought from the administrators of a property within
Rush Grove Mews, on behalf of the perceived landowner.
4. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the
claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.
5. It is denied that the claimant's signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. It is of fundamental importance that any signage meets the minimum standards under the IPC Code as this underpins the validity of any such charge. The terms on the Claimant's signage are displayed in a font which is too small to be read from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. The signage is inadequate and there are no road/ bay markings present. No signage is present when entering the road or indeed where the car was parked. The sign isn’t lit up or illuminated and so wouldn’t be seen outside daylight hours. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.
6. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorization from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.
7. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.
8. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.
I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

Coupon-mad

OK that was a good, concise defence.

Dad's witness statement will be easier to write, as he will start by saying that he was not the driver, then talk about the story as he knows it (what were the circs)?

How long was the car photographed for, merely minutes? How many?

Were you visiting a resident, and could have been merely fetching a visitor permit, if there are some?

Katie1111

I keep replying but theyre not appearing for some reason....Thank you for your responses.

I have read the sticky threads a number of times, this wasnt my first port of call. Hence me asking for a bit of guidance.

They dont appear to have breached any of the keeper liability law that I can see as they wrote to my dad, we just werent getting any correspondence due to the incorrect address. But I will re-read it to see about driver/ keeper rules.

They only took close up pictures of the car, not the surrounding area. I have pictures to show where the car was and where the signs were. I was parked there all day. When I returned to find the ticket I moved the car.

I was told to park where I parked by an Air B&B owner (they dont want anything to do with it now) but I have a screen shot of them telling me to park there.

I also have google maps screen shots of the road showing where the two small signs where on a very long road (none of which are anywhere near where I was parked).

Le_Kirk

A quick way to make sure you/your Dad receives all the papers etc. is to send a Rectification Notice to the DPO at the PPC informing them of the address for service of the keeper and requiring them to ERASE the old address. Then submit a SAR to the DPO at the PPC - see NEWBIE sticky post # 2 for info on SARs - to receive everything they have on this parking issue.