Insurance Company Cannot Trace Documents

frankp57

Hello,

Firstly, I'm not sure if this is in the correct section. Apologies if it's not.

I'm helping a friend out in trying to claim some money he is entitled to (he's not computer or internet savvy). The background as I know it and from the documents we have is:

Provider: Provident Mutual (after takeovers etc; the policy should be with Aviva).

Year Started: 1987 (for about 2 to 3 years).

Product: 25 Year Accumulator Plan - 3 Units

A few months ago he came across some paperwork regarding this policy. Included in the paperwork are 2 annual Bonus Certificate Statements. Also included is a "New Policy Completion Advice" document.

We have 3 account numbers (1 per unit).

We have phoned and emailed Aviva several times and have basically been passed from pillar to post. There have been 4 separate support ticket numbers opened as different people have had a look at this.

The latest attempt to sort it today provided some steps forward, but then also brought us to a standstill again.

The step forward was that finally someone recognised the Provident Mutual policy numbers quoted. So that was some sort of progress.

The problem that followed though was that one of the 3 unit numbers (as recognised by the Aviva support staff) was assigned to somebody completely different based in Scotland (my friend who has the policy lives in England).

The person in Scotland was paid out by all accounts on that policy number apparently. There was nothing found for the other 2 policy numbers.

We requested that they try to search by other means other than the policy numbers - e.g. national insurance number; date of birth; address. Still nothing.

So, in short:

1/ We have the original documents.

2/ The old Provident Mutual policy numbers were recognised by Aviva.

3/ One of the policy numbers shows that a settlement/claim has been made to another person.

4/ No details available for the other 2 policy numbers.

We hit a brick wall basically. Does anyone know what may be the next step we could take?

Hope all this makes sense. Hopefully someone will have some suggestions.

Best Regards

Frank

Marcon

Make a formal complaint using Aviva's complaints process (look on their website) and make sure you head it 'complaint'. Set out the facts as clearly and concisely as you can and send it via signed for delivery with copies (not originals) of all relevant documents.

The company must then respond to you within given timeframes. If the complaint isn't resolved to your satisfaction, you can then head to the Ombudsman once you have had a 'final reply' from Aviva.

Old_Lifer

A policy at that time was sometimes issued in a cluster of small policies so that each policy could be cashed-in separately. For example, a £50 per month policy could be written as ten £5 policies. Where this happened the policy numbers were issued in sequence.


You say that the policy was assigned to someone living in Scotland and a surrender value was paid to them. I cannot see how this would happen.


Although an Assignment to change the ownership of a policy could be easily obtained from a law stationery shop:


1. I would expect the Life Office to query why the letter enclosing the Assignment was sent from an address in Scotland , whereas their records would show the policholder as having an address elsewhere.


2.) How would the person in Scotland know your friend's name and policy number?


3.) I would expect the Life Office as a matter of routine, to check the signature on the Assignment against the signature held in its records on the proposal form your friend completed.


4.) It would have been normal practice at the time, for the Assignment to have the signature and address of a witness.


Similarly, I cannot see someone in Scotland surrendering your friend's policy for reasons 1 -3 mentioned above and also because the Life Office would have requested the return of the policy as well as a completed form of discharge signed by the policyholder before paying the surrender value.


One simple answer to all this could be that a clerical error occurred, a wrong digit was typed somewhere and on the face of it, two policyholders appear to have the same policy number.


With regard to the actual policy. It had a term (endowment) or premium payment term (whole life policy) of 25 years. Your friend stopped paying premiums after 2 years or so. A policy would usually have no surrender value in the first year because of commission and set-up costs and after 2 years or so , would have had only a small surrender value. If you have the documentation, you need to look at the section dealing with ceasing premium payments. With some policies when premium payments cease, the life cover continues in full and charges continue to be deducted each month from the policy and when only a couple of years premiums have been paid under the policy, the point can be reached where the money runs out and the policy terminates without value. That is why it would be important to establish from the documentation whether or not there were ongoing charges after premiums ceased.



If the policies did terminate years ago as a result of ongoing charges, that would be one reason why your friend still has the policies.

SonOf

The plan was a regular premium plan. It would have gained barely any value, if any at all, in just a 2-3 year period. If it lapsed without value, then the policy documents would not need to be returned.

frankp57

Old_Lifer wrote: »

You say that the policy was assigned to someone living in Scotland and a surrender value was paid to them. I cannot see how this would happen.

During a conversation with one of their customer support staff yesterday we mentioned that there were 3 consecutive numbers. For the middle policy number reference he stopped and said, "We have something for this. Are you (then he gave the name) in Scotland? We've paid out on that" type of comment (maybe not word for word exactly that, but he definitely gave a name that was attached to that policy number reference.



One simple answer to all this could be that a clerical error occurred, a wrong digit was typed somewhere and on the face of it, two policyholders appear to have the same policy number.

That's what I reckon - an admin error. Or, the number was reallocated (can this happen?) if my friend's policy was given a different number. I say this because this was mentioned in an email from one of the support staff to my friend's wife - "as it may be a case that the policy numbers have changed and therefore we can have a search via your name and date of birth to see what we can find for you".


If the policies did terminate years ago as a result of ongoing charges, that would be one reason why your friend still has the policies.

I think it was more a case of him finding a folder with the paperwork in rather than him being formally notified that the policy terminated. As you hear so often, "I found this while sorting out the loft" type of thing. Another issue that compounds the paperwork trail is that he has changed address as well.

Regarding the 2/3 period - he may have been in it longer - it's just that this is the only folder he has initially come across.

From this initial folder we thought to start the ball rolling a quick call to Aviva would kick things off. Hitting the brick walls we have as they have no details means we haven't cleared the first hurdle yet.

Thanks for your input - much appreciated.

Old_Lifer

Yes, it sounds like an error of some sort. Possibly the person on the 'phone may have looked at the wrong line of information on the computer screen. If the person in Scotland had received a payment fairly recently -say in the last few years - that may explain why they still have records. If your friend's policies terminated years ago, that may explain why they no longer have records.


The only circumstance I have come across of a policy number changing, is where an option is excercised and a new policy is issued with a new policy number. I have no working experience of all the mergers of recent years but I can only assume that messing around with policy numbers would cause chaos and confusion. I have had accounts with building societies which have merged and my account numbers have remained the same. In any event, from what you say you did finally get through to someone who reognised the policy number format.


A letter would not usually be issued where the money in a policy runs out and the policy terminates without value. It just ceases to exist.

frankp57

SonOf wrote: »

The plan was a regular premium plan. It would have gained barely any value, if any at all, in just a 2-3 year period. If it lapsed without value, then the policy documents would not need to be returned.

Thanks for the feedback.

It was a "Maximum Investment Plan" with reversionary bonuses.

Whatever the plan is, it would be handy if Aviva could find it somewhere in the first place so that he can see what (if anything) is sitting there.

Old_Lifer

Ah, so the policies have reversionary bonuses, so they are conventional policies. That makes things a little more hopeful, provided the policies were not surrendered by your friend (if so and the policies were missing at the time he may still have them).


Reversionary bonuses are added to a policy annually and once added to the policy are guaranteed and cannot be taken away. However they are only payable in full at the end of the term or on death within the term. At other times you receive only the surrender value of the bonuses.


If you click on my user name and then click on 'find more posts' you should find my post dated 13.5.19 (Lost Endowment) which may perhaps be of interest to you.


As you say, you really need the Life Office to get back to you so you will know the situation regarding the policies.

frankp57

Old_Lifer wrote: »

Ah, so the policies have reversionary bonuses, so they are conventional policies. That makes things a little more hopeful, provided the policies were not surrendered by your friend (if so and the policies were missing at the time he may still have them).


Reversionary bonuses are added to a policy annually and once added to the policy are guaranteed and cannot be taken away. However they are only payable in full at the end of the term or on death within the term. At other times you receive only the surrender value of the bonuses.


If you click on my user name and then click on 'find more posts' you should find my post dated 13.5.19 (Lost Endowment) which may perhaps be of interest to you.


As you say, you really need the Life Office to get back to you so you will know the situation regarding the policies.

Many thanks again - much appreciated. My friend is coming around later so he can try one more telephone number to contact and get to the bottom of it.

One previous suggestion was to make a complaint to Aviva but even though Aviva have a complaints page with a form that you can complete, they also have a link to complaints pages for companies they have acquired over the years for older policies. There's nothing for Provident Mutual though. Friends Provident yes, but no Provident Mutual.

A search for Provident Mutual on a website called "Policy Detective" shows a telephone number and address for the old Norwich Union. The number is a different number to all the Aviva ones we have tried, so hopefully we will have some joy.

If not, while on the call we may well ask for how to escalate this to a formal complaint as suggested if we are still being passed from pillar to post.

Thanks again, I'll have a look at your earlier post as suggested.

SonOf

Provident Mutual was rebranded to Norwich Union before it became Aviva. So, PM plans would use the default NU/Aviva complaints address. Friends Provident hasnt integrated much yet and still operates out of Salisbury (and AXA Sun Life, which became Friends still operates out of Bristol). Hence why you get these differences with only some of the legacy companies.

So, use the Aviva/NU contact details.

frankp57

SonOf wrote: »

Provident Mutual was rebranded to Norwich Union before it became Aviva. So, PM plans would use the default NU/Aviva complaints address. Friends Provident hasnt integrated much yet and still operates out of Salisbury (and AXA Sun Life, which became Friends still operates out of Bristol). Hence why you get these differences with only some of the legacy companies.

So, use the Aviva/NU contact details.

Nice one - thanks for the feedback.