Court Summons Received - ignored all previous letters - what now?

MiguelCotto

Thanks I know it must be frustrating for you guys that know this stuff inside out, being asked the same stuff repeatedly, but for us newbies its like wading through treacle trying to find out what is relevant and what is not.  

I'm confident talking about CRA as I understand the quotes in Schedule 2 but the POFA stuff wasn't going in so much. 

MiguelCotto

If this is correct then this is exactly what I wanted, (I want some quotes I can memorise)
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 ('the POFA') at paras 4(5) and 4(6) makes it clear that the will of Parliament regarding parking on private land is that the only sum potentially able to be recovered is the sum in any compliant 'Notice to Keeper' (further, the ceiling for a 'parking charge', as set by the Trade Bodies and the DVLA, is £100). This also depends upon the Claimant fully complying with the statute, including 'adequate notice' of the parking charge and prescribed documents served in time/with mandatory wording. It is submitted the claimant has failed on all counts and the Claimant is well aware their artificially inflated claim, as pleaded, constitutes double recovery.

nosferatu1001

That is of course correc t- I know who wrote it!

Le_Kirk

You don't need to memorise, you can take notes to the court or the hearing.  Anyway POFA will be available to the judge via his laptop.

MiguelCotto

OK so unfortunately I didn't win the case. Gutted, but I think it was close.

There was no dispute about CRA & POFA the judge was happy with all this so all extra fees were removed. When I quoted the CRA the legal beagle and judge both seemed a bit stunned even when it was in skeleton but she was happy with the POFA part to deny the extra charges and didn't need to read the CRA. The judge asked him if he had any questions and he just asked if my address was correct which was odd.

What I thought was a strong part of my defence, the signage, was actually a contentious point and what I lost on. What was debated was what constituted the entrance, potentially 3 spots. The judge decided the area I said had no signage (the turning from main road running down the side of the supermarket into the carpark proper) was just an 'Alleyway' into the actual carpark & felt that it was the responsibility of the driver to read the T&Cs as she was satisfied the signage was adequate.

Part of my defence was that the entrance had no signage and the claimant repeatedly mentioned 'Signage at the entrance' in their WS so I thought I had good grounds here. They even added new signage in that spot so I argued they knew they were operating outside the BPA code. But alas she argued this was not the true entrance to the car park and all they had done was 'improved' the signage not corrected it.

So I lost but only have to pay the initial fine plus court costs so has added up to slightly less than the fine. The guy said it was the best defence he had seen for a parking ticket. And the Judge also told him to warn his client that if they continually see cases where the fines are in excess of £250 they will be thrown out, so maybe I've help someone else down the line.

in hindsight maybe it was a tall ask to only rely on the signage when the driver had basically overstayed.
Thanks everyone for your help.

Redx

Shame , but well done anyway because you put up a good fight and it's clear that the judges don't like these inflated claims

Coupon-mad

Is it that para  6 "Nothing in this paragraph affects any other remedy the creditor may have against the keeper of the vehicle or any other person in respect of any unpaid parking charges (but this is not to be read as permitting double recovery)."
Is basically saying the creditor can't chase the keeper for any more money than the original amount

Stop looking at that bit, it means nothing, don't raise it. That is a standard sentence in some laws, just meaning that there might be other laws that provide for other remedies.  IMHO, it's a standard wording to stop one law cancelling out another.

If they say they submitted the notice and all the POFA conditions were met - what is my defence in quoting those paras?

You point out if they are wrong.  CEL use two different types of NTK, one has the 9(2)f warning hidden on the back (top) of the NTK in a blurb paragraph about payments. You can check to see if the 9(2)f warning about the keeper being liable, is there or not in your NTK.  Some of them have no such wording and you needed to check this earlier.

they cant recover the same sum twice ie the parking charge notice amount again
 Do you mean over 2 different parking infringements? - sorry if I'm being a bit slow... 

No of course we don't mean 2 parking events!  We mean they can't charge you twice for the same business costs of a few letters.

Read the transcript of the Southampton case and take the Approved Judgment (6 pages from DJ Grand) with you, to explain to the Judge what the bit about abuse of process means.  When I say read the transcript, I mean read the transcript of the entire hearing as posted this week in the Britannia v Crosby thread I posted.  

Start from after the bit that says 'SHORT ADJOURNMENT' (the beginning is all bluster and rubbish as documents were sorted out) and read everything the lay rep (me) said.   Please read it now.  I will not link it...never !

You will understand why a parking firm cannot charge TWICE for the same admin costs that already make up the £100 parking charge. 

Take a wage slip to court to prove your costs and ASK THE JUDGE FOR THEM before you leave, when you win!

And print off/take the post office (or email 'sent item') PROOF that you sent your Witness Statement & evidence to the Claimant and the court, in case they say that it didn't arrive and try to catch you out.  You just cough and say, ''ah, but I have proof it was sent on xx/xx/20''

You know not to speak to the rep outside, and not to accept any papers from him/her in the waiting room, and to get there half an hour early...to sign in with the Usher at the desk after getting through security - as you will have read on countless threads I hope.  Threads with 'hearing tips' are literally everywhere here.

Redx

Already been to court today , lost on signage

MiguelCotto

I just logged onto CEL's website and it asked me to pay £125. This is less than the court judgement. I've paid it and I'm tempted to wait and see if they chase be for the remainder. Is this risky with the court? What could be the outcome?

Coupon-mad

It is risky and you need to pay what the Judge ordered.

 And the Judge also told him to warn his client that if they continually see cases where the fines are in excess of £250 they will be thrown out, so maybe I've help someone else down the line.

You have, it seems to me.  Which court and Judge?