Unfair PCN from PTL

Matt_Hayter

Hi guys,

I wanted a bit of advice here.

Back in July i returned to my vehicle after work to find the below PCN stuck on my windscreen.

Below is my image, however I can't post a link yet so there is a space after the .com
mediafire.com /view/od17ulayspaye2h/IMG_20190715_172942.jpg/file

A few things to note, the permit was issued by Regus and all details on it added by them, this image was taken prior to me unlocking the car, the car is always parked in the same bay, the permit (blue disk) has been in the same location for months, the signage states "permits must be visible in the windscreen".

The reason for the PCN being issued was no permit on display...

I immediately disputed this with Parking Ticketing Ltd (PTL) and it was rejected after a few days. They reiterated their claim the permit was not on display and provided images of my car, taken from a distance and height that removed my permit from shot. They had found an angle you couldn't see the permit.

I then opened up an appeal with POPLA and after a couple of months POPLA rejected my appeal too. They stated that regardless of all evidence I submitted previously, they could not see a valid date written on the permit.

I went back to Regus (who had written the date in pencil) and POPLA on the same day.

Regus told me the hand written date is for their benefit only and sent an email to POPLA stating this. Many of the permits Regus issue do not have dates on them by the looks of it, it's purely for their own accounting and normally coincides with the end of the contract with an employer.

I went back to POPLA stating no one had mentioned a valid date on a permit up until now, otherwise I would have submitted evidence to counter that point. I then forwarded on the Regus email as well as informing them that even the land owner (who employed PTL) had asked for the PCN to be cancelled as they knew it was bogus.

A complaint was then taken out against the decision of the POPLA appeal.

Finally today (13 days before the PCN goes from £100 to £150, which is when PTL threaten a dept recovery service) POPLA complaints have responded.

They have upheld the rejection on the basis;

1 - I do not have a time stamped image of the permit in place before the PCN was issued, only after.
2 - They still can't read a valid date on the permit in my image.

I then called POPLA and spoke to a helpful person. He's said PTL have also submitted images (which i've not seen yet) that clearly show my permit as well as their images hiding it.

I've requested these images but been told it can take up to 30 days.

I've gone back to the POPLA email asking;

"Could you kindly answer these questions as I am shocked this is still hanging over me.

1 - How can you reasonably request I have a picture [date stamped] of my permit prior to the PCN being issued? No sane person takes a photo of their windscreen every morning on the off chance today is the day a parking firm try their luck.
2 - Please acknowledge that PTL have provided photos of my permit in the location i have specified, after speaking with an operator of yours today I know this to be the case. PTL originally reported my permit was not there at all then subsequently shown you it was in fact where I said it was all along.

I think we can all agree that the permit was on display on the day of the ticket being issued. This alone should invalidate the PCN.

3 - You seem to still be mentioning the date written on the permit as a requirement. The land owner and business owner who issued the permit have told you no written date is required on this permit. The warden should be looking for a blue disc in the windscreen only. All other information on the permit is visible.

I do not understand why this PCN is being upheld. "

Any advise it appreciated.
Matt

Fruitcake

PoPLA assessors are not well trained. Indeed many of them can't count to 14 nor understand the requirements of the PoFA 2012.

I fear you are pushing dung uphill through treacle.

By all means keep complaining to PoPLA but don't expect the answer you want. You should make the point that the scammers withheld evidence at PoPLA and therefore you were unable to rebut the claim. State that this was an obvious intent to deceive, and a breach of the BPA CoP. (Quote the relevant section).
You should also complain to the BPA about this breach of CoP as well.
Do complain to the landowner/permit issuer, and your MP about this unregulated scam.

When I was employed, we were issued with undated permits. You could only get one if you were an employee, so I understand your point of view even if the 11 Plus failures at PoPLA don't.

You can of course ignore debt crawlers and anything else you get except real court papers.
Good luck.

Edit, this is the relevant part of the CoP.

20.5b In deciding whether a payment ticket has been visibly displayed on a vehicle you must do a thorough visual check of the dashboard and windows.

Coupon-mad

He's said PTL have also submitted images (which i've not seen yet) that clearly show my permit as well as their images hiding it.

Send a SAR by email to PTL requiring ALL data and all images, and complain again to Regus who can TELL PTL to cancel this, and should have just done that all along.

Forget POPLA; sadly the service is broken and the Assessors nothing like as good, thorough and knowledgeable as the old service run by London Councils.

And in the long term, get together with other residents to get all trace of any parking firm REMOVE from your estate. None is needed an they make your life a misery.

Matt_Hayter

An email sent this morning;

The following have been Bcc'd into this email.
Parking Ticketing Limited (PTL)POPLA (independent body)
The British Parking Association (BPA)
Regus
The Land owner who employed PTL
Sir!Mike Penning, Conservative MP for Hemel Hempstead
Grant Shapps, Secretary of State for Transport and MP for Welwyn and Hatfield!

I would like to for the record, take the time to provide information on the deceitful!nature of Parking Ticketing Limited.!

In July a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to myself, (I have attached again my photo taken prior to my car being unlocked that day).

The PCN stated "Not clearly displaying a valid permit", the photo's PTL provided with this was 4 images that had been taken at angles which removed my permit form the shot. One image from the rear, one from the front at a distance and two from the front but at a low enough angle so that the permit is hidden.!

The signage at the car park simply states "Permits must be clearly visible in the windscreen". The signage makes no mention of location for the permit within the car, distance it needed to be visible from etc. As per the BPA CoP, section 20.5b, “In deciding whether a payment ticket has been visibly displayed on a vehicle you must do a thorough visual check of the dashboard and windows.” The parking ticketing warden had clearly not abided by this code.!

As a result I spent my appeal process arguing the location of a permit. This was a mistake and clearly what PTL intended for me to do.

After a phone call with a member of the POPLA team yesterday, I have come to understand PTL had provided POPLA with their own photos of my car with the permit clearly in shot.
I have, via a freedom!of information act requested these previously hidden photos to be released to me from both POPLA and PTL.

PTL deliberately!withheld evidence from me to mislead my appeal process.!

All parties involved, myself, POPLA and Parking Ticketing Limited where all in agreement on the location of my permit and that their warden had seen it. They allowed me to pursue!an appeal at a tangent.!

I should have spent my appeal process arguing it was clearly visible. That you can clearly see all printed information on the permit, that you can clearly see the holographic design and that the only thing which is slightly obscured is the hand written date on the permit. A date hand written by Regus, who also issued the permit and I took it on good faith as a valid permit.!

Regus have since written to parties involved explaining no date is required to be written on a blue permit and that if there is one, it is purely for the benefit of Regus.!!

The original claim by PTL was clearly a deliberate act to withhold evidence and therefore I was unable to rebut the claim. This was an obvious intent to deceive.

POPLA have also requested that I should have an image taken of my permit, date stamped before the PCN was issued. This is a completely unacceptable photo for an independent body to expect from a motorist to successfully appeal. Who takes a picture of their car every morning, just in case a parking firm are going to try their luck that day?

For those copied in I expect;

Parking Ticketing Limited to accept they have acted with deceit and cancel this invoice.!
POPLA to acknowledge their one sided appeal process needs urgent review if it can be so easily misused. To also approve my appeal.
Regus to!take responsibility that their hand written date has landed their client with a fine. To either fight this PCN with me or cover the costs.
For the land owner to take note of how a firm they hired has acted and to request again this PCN to be cancelled.!
For the BPA to see how PTL are acting against their CoP.!
For the MP's to acknowledge the UK is in desperate need of a Parking ombudsman. As the system in place is broken from start to finish.!!

I thank you for taking the time to read this and look forward to all responses.