Wind being curtailed tonight

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

You'd need gas to attain a satisfactory flow temperature in a reasonable amount of time. After that, a 6kWh electric heater should be able to cope with a reasonably well insulated home.

6KW would be fine for a large uninsulated home I don't think I use 6KW in the winter for heating and I have solid walls semi

With a 3KW electric hybrid boiler yes perhaps fire the boiler for 1 minute to get the rads up to temp and then let the electric heater do the baseload. Depending on the property and insulation that 3KW could be enough to run all the rads and if not it would still be the bulk with the gas kicking in much less so

But as noted elsewhere it would be easier just to have a free standing smart resistance heater connected to the net and used when there is excess green and off when there is no excess green. Another advantage to this is you don't need to wait for a homes boiler to break down and be replaced by hybrid boiler you can install this anytime

Super cheap to purchase and super effective
Only needs regulation to allow these heaters to buy marginal curtailed green at about 4p a unit

As a minimum some trials should be done. A power company installing 1,000 units
Can even use dumb electric heaters and one of those Amazon or Google sockets that you can turn on off remotely with the grid turning them on/off depending on excess wind. If effective and it will be then deploy in larger and larger numbers. Solves curtailment cheap fast effective. Could even be done within weeks to test and then deployed within months to solve curtailment rapidly

Martyn1981

GreatApe wrote: »

A small figure relative to what we are talking about

Is it?

2,000,000 TM3's is a small figure? So 2m x 60kWh+ = 120,000,000kWh, or 120GWh.

But earlier you suggested* the curtailment was 30GWh:

GreatApe wrote: »

Yesterday's 10h of 'pinprick' curtailment of marginal non-fossil was probably in the region of 30GWh

and I'm no mathematician, but isn't 120GWh of storage bigger than 30GWh of curtailment? And isn't that what 'you' were talking about?

*made up.

Martyn1981

GreatApe wrote: »

I'm a process engineer and a physicist and have invented various things that were commercially successful, what exactly have you done?

As I was told, about 8yrs ago, when someone on the G&E board tried to push their gibberish - "When a man needs to state his qualifications - he's already lost the argument."

Interesting to find out that the person who denies AGW science, and FF emission pollution science, is a physicist. I'd have thought a physicist would have more respect for facts and science.

Me .... I'm just a lowly rocket surgeon, but now retired and living of my royalties from inventing the diagram that shows you which way round to insert batteries.

Martyn1981

GreatApe wrote: »

With a 3KW electric hybrid boiler yes perhaps fire the boiler for 1 minute to get the rads up to temp and then let the electric heater do the baseload.

Not being a physicist, can I just check something. Based on the previously mentioned 24kW common gas boiler (@90% efficiency), are you saying that it only takes 360Wh of energy to heat all the water in the pipes and rads, and the rad metal in a house to 60C+?

And as a follow up, since maintaining heat requires input to match losses, are you also saying that in winter, a whole house only loses 3kW of heat?

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Is it?

2,000,000 TM3's is a small figure? So 2m x 60kWh+ = 120,000,000kWh, or 120GWh.

But earlier you suggested* the curtailment was 30GWh:

and I'm no mathematician, but isn't 120GWh of storage bigger than 30GWh of curtailment? And isn't that what 'you' were talking about?

*made up.

Why would you use the empty to full figure?

You need to look at how much the average EV will use and thus need to be topped up by
Average UK mileage is about 7,100 miles a year or roughly 20 miles per day
At 4.2 miles per kWh and 85% charge efficiency and rounding up to the nearest whole number you get 6KWh of storage per car multiply by 2 million cars and they can absorb 12GWh if ALL of them are charged at night which won't be the case at all

This 12GWh is useful but not that big a deal
And I said it was a trivial figure compared to how much will be curtailed in five years time when these 2 million EVs exist

In five years time we will have 10GW more offshore wind
A day like yesterday would mean in excess of 100GWh curtailed so those EVs might be able to mop up 10% you need a solution for the other 90%


Edit:

Also to compare a single 1.4 GW link to Norway can absorb 33.6 GWh compared to the 12GWh for two million model 3s. As can be seen interconntors are more effective and important at least at this stage

While hearing via smart resistance heaters would potentially allow 50GWh - 500GWh per day of curtailment relief depending on summer/winter

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

As I was told, about 8yrs ago, when someone on the G&E board tried to push their gibberish - "When a man needs to state his qualifications - he's already lost the argument."

Interesting to find out that the person who denies AGW science, and FF emission pollution science, is a physicist. I'd have thought a physicist would have more respect for facts and science.

Me .... I'm just a lowly rocket surgeon, but now retired and living of my royalties from inventing the diagram that shows you which way round to insert batteries.

Good thing to know we are on a level Marty :beer:

I'm sorry I questioned your self proclaimed status of arbiter of all things holy good and just, with this new information it's clear the title is deservedly yours

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Not being a physicist, can I just check something. Based on the previously mentioned 24kW common gas boiler (@90% efficiency), are you saying that it only takes 360Wh of energy to heat all the water in the pipes and rads, and the rad metal in a house to 60C+?

And as a follow up, since maintaining heat requires input to match losses, are you also saying that in winter, a whole house only loses 3kW of heat?

Your combi boiler won't be 90% efficient when heating water for the taps
That's why you see steam out the flu when you turn the hot water tap on
It's not condensing and your operating at a lower efficiency perhaps in the 70-85% region

And no I'm not claiming it takes 360Wh to heat up the water and rads in a home it depends on your particular setup there isn't a one figure correct answer you'd need to know the exact setup to figure that out. More rads bigger pipe more energy needed. Either way it's an almost irrelevant number. I think 2KWh would be more likely so you'd need to fire up the gas electric combo for about 5 minutes then let the electric take over. If the electric isn't sufficient alone each time the rads fall to say 50 centigrade the gas would kick in and when at 60 centigrade the gas would kick out. Of total heat demand is under 3KW it would be all electric. If demand is 4KW then 3/4 units would be electric and so on

How much heat is lost in the winter for a house depends on the house
But yes I'd imagine 3KW of heat power isn't far off for a normal winter day for a terrace house
That's equals to about 80KWh of natural gas per day Which seems about right

My own home is closer to 5KW but it has no insulation and has solid walls

ABrass

Most combos have a minimum power setting in at least some cases that's about 7kw.

But keep trying.

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Interesting to find out that the person who denies AGW science, and FF emission pollution science, is a physicist. I'd have thought a physicist would have more respect for facts and science..

With regards to global warming I've already stated my views
I think humans definitely impact the world (at every level) especially through land use
I just don't think it's likely to be anything other than a very slight net movement either positive or negative and the impact will be negligible and that we will have the tech and productivity to geoengineer whole planets let alone nudge a temperature one or two degrees up or down

So I don't worry about it because it's a negligible problem with easy solutions down the line

I also don't like the posturing and nonsense and holiness about it all
I'm pro helping people and you can do this in many ways like helping the poor develop or giving to charities not by patting your back about how great you are because you stuck some Chinese panels on your roof and were paid to do it. Come over here let me pat you on the back....well done Marty well done you

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

Most combos have a minimum power setting in at least some cases that's about 7kw.

But keep trying.

And if you need say 3KW heat, or 1KW heat or 1.7KW heat demand how do you think that works.....?

It just turns itself on and off such that the average of the on and off is equal to whatever the heat demand is