Wind being curtailed tonight

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Maybe....but those that require a big charge every night will look for a cheap tariff.

Agree but lots of people don't care or understand they will just plug in
It's not a huge problem now but it might become one
Also to be fair car useage isn't everyone coming home at 6pm
Lots of people come home throughout the day
However the general trend if used by the uninformed would be that EVs add to daytime demand mostly and very little to nights

So some sort of regulation is needed for the common good

Or at least educate the customer
When you plug in at 6pm your app says 'do you want to charge now for 15p a unit or wait to midnight and charge at 5p a unit' that way almost all will wait for night time rate

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

Oh I see. Magic hand waving about things that don't exist. Adding the element increases size, cost (as you'd need a sparky to connect it and possibly replace the distribution unit, plus the increased draw may require larger tails and a higher rated supply meter), complexity, requires smart features to be built in and will add volume. You can't just use a dumb system as if you were to put that in in bulk you'd destabilise the grid.

I'm going to say your numbers are, as ever, unrealisable.

But it doesn't matter as it's an unrealistic unrequired and fundamentally dead end concept. If it existed now, and wasn't a huge additional cost, then maybe it could help span the period where it could be useful. But since it doesn't exist by the time it could be introduced it'd be too late anyway.

You must have a really old boiler

They are already pretty smart and already need electricity
You don't need it to be a 10KW element you can use a 3KW one or even 2KW if limited
And plumbers can wire in basic things you don't need an electrician
And the cost of smart is decreasing all the time
You can buy a low end smartphone for £50 and that has many bits you don't need for a boiler
GPS Bluetooth cellular microphone speaker accelerometer battery and overkill CPU GPU memory etc etc so a stripped down smartphone as the brains is sufficient and wouldn't cost much especially since it can displace a lot of the existing circuits in a semi smart boiler

The size and space and cost will be less than an electric shower unit especially since a lot of the bits are duplicated.

Technically very simple

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

Edit: and there is no advantage at all for the customer, which would make it a hell of a hard sell.

That is true which is why I've said you would need a special tariff for these dual fuel heating systems something like 4p a unit of electricity

This 4p @ 100% efficiency is about equal to the 3.5p at an average 85% efficient in gas mode

There is no loss or gain for the customer
The gain for the nation though is less gas burnt and ability to deploy wind faster and more deeply

I don't see it want customers ripping out existing systems,
Only when their boiler breaks their new boiler is dual fuel
So at no additional cost the country gets a way to dump a lot of otherwise curtailed wind into heating systems

4p should be possible since it's otherwise curtailed energy and the dual fuel aspects allows use when there is grid capacity and excess marginal green

ABrass

To replace a 24kw boiler (the most common size) with a resistive heater you'll need a lot more than 2kw of electricity. What model do you have that is so small and puny?

Boilers draw at most 100-150W whilst running at present. That means you can just stick it on a spur or a standard ring. Pump that up by a factor of 10 or 100 then you need a dedicated cable.

Your problem is that you don't know enough to know you don't know.

GreatApe

Another way to stop curtailment at least in the 6 colder months, especially in Scotland (perhaps 12 months in the colder parts of Scotland) is to deploy smart or semi smart resistance heaters

Plug in one or multiple free standing resistance heaters

When the grid has excess wind these resistance heaters heat your home and the boiler doesn't kick in
When no excess wind they don't work and the boiler kicks in

Charge the customer 4p a unit for the electricity used for these resistance heaters so it doesn't cost more than the gas boiler

Perhaps energy company could give these away for free they would be quite cheap to manufacture and deploy.
Deploy in 10 million homes a 2.5KW model would give ability to absorb 25GW of excess power which would mean no Curtailment at all for colder months

GreatApe

Okay I accept the hybrid boiler is too complicated let's change to smart electric heaters

The UK and any other country with marginal curtailed green (France comes to mind but I'm sure others too) should deploy smart resistance heaters. The country should regulate into existence a cheap heating tariff of 4p a unit

Energy companies should deploy these heaters to where there is excess grid capacity and where there is the most curtailment problems (Scotland would probably be first)

Perhaps deploy in council homes first and give the household free electricity for these heaters for 1 year and then 4p a unit thereafter

Free electricity for these won't cost much since they are only on when there is excess curtailed wind and marginal green. So maybe for now they might be in use 300 hours a year say 900 KWh at a cost of 4p would only cost £36 to make it free for a year not a big deal

Deploy perhaps 0.5 million units at a cost of perhaps £15 million to start with probably mostly in Scotland and mostly in the less well insulated homes. Will give the ability to absorb 1.5GW of curtailed marignal green. Evaluate the outcome. If positive then deploy 3 million across the country. If positive deploy 30 million (3KW models but able to work in 300 watt increments)

Curtailment solved. Even if there was a tremendous massive 30GW surplus of wind in the winter it would be fine these heaters could take it assuming the grid is capable. The location of these heaters would be known so the grid can manage both excess wind and local grid limits

1961Nick

ABrass wrote: »

To replace a 24kw boiler (the most common size) with a resistive heater you'll need a lot more than 2kw of electricity. What model do you have that is so small and puny?

Boilers draw at most 100-150W whilst running at present. That means you can just stick it on a spur or a standard ring. Pump that up by a factor of 10 or 100 then you need a dedicated cable.

Your problem is that you don't know enough to know you don't know.

Yep 24kWh is a dedicated supply from the meter. No way would you get 16mm cable into a typical domestic consumer unit.....even assuming you could find a 104 amp breaker! It'd only take another 5kWh to blow the 125A main fuse.

Solarchaser

I have invented nothing, please make us all stand in wonder at your many inventions.

List them!

And while we are at it I'm now missing 2 words from the Ape bull5hit bingo.

We already have:-
Interconnectors
Grid solved
Synthetic inertia
Nuclear


I'm just missing "AI" and "software", then I can shout Ape bull5hit bingo

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Yep 24kWh is a dedicated supply from the meter. No way would you get 16mm cable into a typical domestic consumer unit.....even assuming you could find a 104 amp breaker! It'd only take another 5kWh to blow the 125A main fuse.

You don't need a 24KW electric heater 12KW is sufficient for a home because electricity is more efficient. 100% Vs perhaps 70-80% when the boiler is non condensing as it would be providing hot water. Also boilers are over powered because it doesn't cost much to make them so and it gives the ability for two showers or rapid bath fills.

A hybrid boiler by its name is hybrid it's partial gas partial electricity
A 3KW element might be sufficient to displace most the gas

If 80% of gas is used for heating a home then the 3KW element is probably okay to do almost all of the central heating for an average insulated home. And to provide part of the energy for water needs. Overall a 3KW electric element might be able to displace 70%+ of the gas used in a boiler for an average home

But I concede that this more complicated than the idea of just having smart free standing resistance heaters which would be easier and quicker to deploy and achieve almost as much as hybrid boilers. So deploy smart resistance heaters to solve curtailment

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

You don't need a 24KW electric heater 12KW is sufficient for a home because electricity is more efficient. 100% Vs perhaps 70-80% when the boiler is non condensing as it would be providing hot water. Also boilers are over powered because it doesn't cost much to make them so and it gives the ability for two showers or rapid bath fills.

A hybrid boiler by its name is hybrid it's partial gas partial electricity
A 3KW element might be sufficient to displace most the gas

If 80% of gas is used for heating a home then the 3KW element is probably okay to do almost all of the central heating for an average insulated home. And to provide part of the energy for water needs. Overall a 3KW electric element might be able to displace 70%+ of the gas used in a boiler for an average home

But I concede this this more complicated than the idea of just having smart free standing resistance heaters which would be easier and quicker to deploy and achieve almost as much as hybrid boilers. So deploy smart resistance heaters to solve curtailment

You'd need gas to attain a satisfactory flow temperature in a reasonable amount of time. After that, a 6kWh electric heater should be able to cope with a reasonably well insulated home.