Hirecar Parked in own Bay (P4 Parking) - Appeal Succesful

infinityx

Hey guys, I got a windscreen Parking Charge from P4 Parking. 14 days ago. I had a hire car for 2 weeks and then on 15 August at 8pm I got confirmation that my extension request to keep the car had gone through for another 13 days. We were supposed to leave the very next morning(16th August) for a road trip, but plans changed and we pushed it to Saturday (7 Month old babies, god bless them! :P) Anyway on 16th August at 10am, they gave me a ticket.

Car was parked in My own bay, but in the tenancy agreement all it says it the agreement is for flat number X including bay number X. There is nothing else specific about the bay except in one section where it says when we leave we should return all items including keys and parking permit. Since we don't have a permanent car we never got a permit, the car hire was a last minute thing since family was over.

There is sufficient signage so I knew you had to display a ticket, and I did have a temporary ticket which expired on 15th at 11pm. unfortunately i completely forgot to go get another one the next morning when we decided to postpone our road trip. But the weird thing is, the ticket clearly says Car Rego and the Parking bay it is parked it (which is a private bay). so if a new ticket wasn't on the dash then isn't it common sense that the owner has simply not had time to go get an updated ticket?

Anyway today is two weeks and I had a thought that given its a hire car, maybe i should submit my appeal today before the 14days lapses so that i can lock in the £60 charge in case my appeal routes fail. I really don't agree I should pay to park in my own bay, but I am in the UK on a Tier 2 visa, so I am not sure having a debt collector flag or a court case on me is a good idea when i apply for indefinite leave in 1.5 years?

Anyway I plan to submit the following appeal based loosely on the newbie thread (there was a lot of information there i didn't know what to pick and choose):

I returned the car yesterday and will be sending Europcar an email not to pay any fines or charges and to forward them to me so I have the choice of contesting them (I have a feeling i might have gotten a valid fine for accidentally entering a bus zone in Central London when returning back from our road trip). .

---

Re: P4Parking PCN, reference code xxxxxxxxxx
POPLA Code: Requested

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence.

Please take into consideration the following:

1. Bay 58 is contractually allocated to Flat 58 (Address of Flat). As such any car in this allocated spot has the right to quiet enjoyment.
2. There was a temporary ticket displayed on the dash that clearly identified the Private Bay (Bay 58) belonging to the car in question. It is reasonable to assume through sheer common sense that there was a delay in a new ticket being acquired the very next day when a charge was given at 10:23am. Some flexibility should have been given to allow the authorized driver the opportunity to get an updated ticket.

Please waive the charge in question. Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,

---

Happy to get some feedback. I tried to keep the appeal simple. From what i hear in the newbie thread the point is for them to assign me as keeper because the 1st appeal always fails anyway?

The_Deep

There is sufficient signage so I knew you had to display a ticket,

Why, does you lease/AST not give you Primacy of Contract? Does it mention the need for a permit or a penalty for not displaying one? Read this?

https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

What can the PPC offer you in excess of that granted by the AST. If is is nothing then there is no contract between you and the PPC. If there is no contract they have no claim for b reach of contract. There is no consideration. Read post 93 et seq

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5969018jestershoe&page=5

Delete para 2 of you draft, you do not need a permission to park from a scammer.

IMO you are being far too polite, they are trying to scam you. Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

nosferatu1001

Indeed, just show us precisely what your lease states.

WHat your lease states is whats key here. WIthout it, youre acting blind.

infinityx

Thank for the responses. don't disagree with anything. absolutely agree they are vultures. Don't like being in this predicament.

There are only three places parking or something to do with it is mentioned, nothing about getting a penalty. There are signs around the complex though:

1. Main Page
FOR A TERM OF TWELVE MONTHS COMMENCING ON THE 30TH APRIL 2019 AND EXPIRING

ON THE 29TH APRIL 2020 AS OUTLINED IN THE

AGREEMENT AT A RENT of £XXX PER CALENDAR MONTH INC BAY NO 58

2. Clause 16: Not to assign transfer, sub-let, use as a short let/ AirBnB, charge, part with or share possession of the Property including furniture and effects. This would also apply to a garage or allocated parking space if applicable.

3. Clause 27: To hand over all keys, fobs and car park remotes, parking permits (if any) to the Property on the last day of the Tenancy expiration or termination.

That's pretty much it :P

Regarding the quite enjoyment part the contract say the following:
Clause 37: That the Tenants paying the rent as aforesaid and performing and observing all the agreements on their part herein contained shall quietly possess and enjoy the Property during the tenancy without any interruption from the Landlord or any person claiming title under or in trust for the Landlord.
Clause 40: This Agreement shall take effect subject to the provisions of Section 11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 so far as applicable to the Tenancy hereby created.
Clause 41: It is hereby acknowledged by the Tenants that the Landlord has given and the Tenants have received prior to execution of this Agreement a notice in the form prescribed by Section 20 of the Housing Act 1988 (as amended in 1996) stating that the tenancy is to be an Assured Shorthold Tenancy within the meaning of that Act. This Notice was given to and read by the Tenants before signing this Agreement.

I knew about having to put a ticket tbh and i respect that there are visitor car spots in the complex, people can abuse it since there is a station nearby. But in this case its my own space I pay for it in my rent and its in a gated garage (mind you the gates are not working at the moment).

Adjusted the appeal as follows:
---

Re: P4Parking PCN, reference code xxxxxxxxxx
POPLA Code: Requested

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence.

Please take into consideration that Bay 58 in which the charge was placed, is contractually allocated to Flat 58 (Address of Flat). As such any car in this allocated spot has the right to quiet enjoyment.

Please waive the charge in question. Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,

infinityx

The is another clause:
Clause 15: To use the Property for the purpose of a private residence and not to use the Property or
permit it to be used for any illegal or immoral purpose or in any other way which would
contravene the Landlord’s lease or any statute. Not to use the property for any commercial purpose.
Clause 22: Not to do or suffer to be done on the Property anything which might put the Landlord in
breach of his own Leasehold or Transfer agreement on the Property.

I don't have the landlords lease. But its possible his lease might have something about parking permits.

I cant see anything in my contract about it being able to be varied. In the parking prankster link, a lease can be varied by the signs if it says so in the contract. But there doesn't seem to be any mention.

infinityx

So on the frollowing thread: "Parking in own space - Gladstoned" on the last page

The person lost a parking in own bay case because he displayed a ticket in the past. Clearly I was displaying a temporary ticket at the time and in my case it expired. I guess in this case i have accepted the contract with the parking company. This kinda sucks. Ill apply for the appeal anyway as per my last revised statement. Thanks everyone:

the judge, when he was asked "did you at any time display the parking permit?" The answer was "Yes". Without waiting for further explanation the judge stated "in that case you entered into a contract with the parking company. The answer should presumably have been "no - I used the permit to tell the parking company that this is my place and I'm entitled to park in it". An easy response in retrospect, but not so easy in the heat of the moment. The judge was not interested in primacy of contract, nor in any previous cases, including an almost identical, and recent, case (we didn't have a copy of the case transcript, but did have the case number) where the defendant won.


The judge ruled in favour of the claimant, but reduced the "fine" from the claimed £260 to £200 and ordered payment to be made within 21 days (a minor point - I thought it was always 30 days). Leave for appeal was refused. The judge stated (paraphrased) - "it'll cost you a significant amount of money to appeal, and you'll lose anyway".

Le_Kirk

Judge: - "did you at any time display the parking permit?"
Defendant - "yes Sir/Madam but only as the PPC seemed incapable of adding authorised cars to a white list, which is the common sense approach to take. If they did this there would be no need for stupid permits that fall off dashboards, become unglued (due to pathetic glue provided by PPCs), get shaken off windscreens/dashboards by wind or parking enforcement "officers" accidentally bumping into cars, permits expiring, being left in temporary hire cars etc."

infinityx

ok. I have submitted the first appeal. hopefully this will get them off my hire car company;s back. lets see what happens. not expecting anything really.

infinityx

First appeal failed. They actually emailed me last week. Didn't get time to read it until this weekend. So I have until 24/09 to pay £60 to close the matter or until 8/10 to pay £100 to close the matter. If i go down the POPLA route I lose the discount.

drive.google.com/file/d/1Dg-zD2BKg4Fi25EBt3dgtNeZKAKC9ShM/view?usp=sharing

I am still worried about the fact that by displaying a visitor parking sticker that expired the day before and getting a new sticker the day following i.e. 1 day gap, I would be in a worse position to explain the situation. Basically after extending the hire period by 2 weeks i completely forgot to get a renewed visitor permit the following day (although in my defense we were supposed to leave early to travel to the coast but decided to leave on Saturday instead).

infinityx

Couple of things, the land Virginia Quay (James Town way) I think is owned by PROXIMA GR PROPERTIES LIMITED which in turn I think majority controlled by Betelgeuse Limited which in turn is controlled by Beta Centauri Limited (if i am reading companies house correctly). Would these companies be the ones employing P4 Parking to give tickets even on parking spots which technically belongs to the leaseholder and through the lease agreement me?

Coupon-mad

First appeal failed.

Obviously, that's normal. It was never meant to work!

If i go down the POPLA route I lose the discount.

Of course, again as normal.

You don't seem to have taken on board that the WHOLE POINT of appealing was to get that rejection, that you wanted, to then go to POPLA and pay nothing!

None of this matters if this was a hire car and you never said who was driving in the first appeal (did you use the forum template from the NEWBIES thread?):

I am still worried about the fact that by displaying a visitor parking sticker that expired the day before and getting a new sticker the day following i.e. 1 day gap, I would be in a worse position to explain the situation. Basically after extending the hire period by 2 weeks i completely forgot to get a renewed visitor permit the following day (although in my defense we were supposed to leave early to travel to the coast but decided to leave on Saturday instead).