Electric vehicles miles per KWh

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

With an annual mileage of 33000 miles the standby losses won't bother me.

As long as I can get 3.4miles/kWh out of a TM3, I will be able to do all the charging on the Octopus off peak tariff.

(4 hour charge @ 7.2kWH x 86% = 24.8kWh)

You seem to be one of the few who understands what I'm on aboout

The headline figures are misleading
A model 3 might get 4.1 miles per KWh according to their regulator and customer feedback
But the car is always using energy while driving or not and there are significant charging losses

What this means is the actual miles per KWh out of the socket is much less
For a typical UK car doing 7,100 miles per year the figure is probably closer to about 2.8 miles per KWh


So for a typical average mileage user they will have to purchase some 150% of the electricity they may assume by simply dividing their annual mileage by the 'miles per KWh' figure

GreatApe

JKenH wrote: »

As this is a money saving forum presumably EV drivers who can charge their EV for free from domestic solar will be less bothered about miles/kWh than those paying for grid power. Also new adopters are likely to drive with one eye on the consumption meter just as I watch every kw I use now I have solar panels, although the novelty is wearing off.

If would be interesting to hear the experiences of company car EV users where getting somewhere in a hurry will be the main priority.

It isn't free if you use PV because you could get an export payment for it
Plus we need to go all BEV while most homes won't have PV panels so it's not much of a solution

However hopefully in the future cars and batteries will self discharge more slowly. The computer hardware and software will be more efficient on standby and the charging infrastructure also more efficient. Perhaps the 500KWh or so of annual vampire drain can be reduced. For one car that 500KWh isn't a huge problem but multiply by 35 million cars and you add 17.5TWh electricity demand for BEVs to just sit there. That's equivalent to 2 nuclear reactors just to power the vampire drain. Something that needs to be improved. And something consumers should be aware of


This also means BEVs are much less efficient than I had imagined
Burning a gallon of petrol gets a model 3 roughly 62 miles" per gallon for s typical 7,100 miles per year user (average UK)


*Using the 2.8 miles per KWh and 8% grid loss and assuming burning petrol in a CCGT at 55% you get a figure of 62 miles per gallon equivalent

silverwhistle

Dave_Fowler wrote: »

The car is the Hyundai Ioniq.
Dave F

I've had a mooch around the EV forums and it does seem to be the best out there. Perhaps some of the newer, designed from scratch, models will also be similarly efficient. Wouldn't mind a second hand one when the prices come down.


I saw a headline on one of my feeds about EVs depreciatingly badly, but as it was in the Mail and as it seems to me S/H prices are very firm I ignored it. The supply is just too low at the moment.

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

You seem to be one of the few who understands what I'm on aboout

The headline figures are misleading
A model 3 might get 4.1 miles per KWh according to their regulator and customer feedback
But the car is always using energy while driving or not and there are significant charging losses

What this means is the actual miles per KWh out of the socket is much less
For a typical UK car doing 7,100 miles per year the figure is probably closer to about 2.8 miles per KWh


So for a typical average mileage user they will have to purchase some 150% of the electricity they may assume by simply dividing their annual mileage by the 'miles per KWh' figure

Even at 2.8 miles/kWh the savings are considerable....even for someone doing 8000 miles pa.

My fuel cost will drop from £90pw to £10pw....:)

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Even at 2.8 miles/kWh the savings are considerable....even for someone doing 8000 miles pa.

My fuel cost will drop from £90pw to £10pw....:)

No
Your tax cost will drop
Your fuel costs mostly won't

Petrol and diesel only cost about 45p per litre in the UK the rest is taxes
An efficient 60mpg diesel costs only 3.4 pennies per mile in fuel

A model 3 getting 2.8 miles per KWh has a fuel cost of 5.1p per mile using a normal 15p/KWh rate minus the VAT.

So the fuel cost per mile for a TM3 is higher than diesel. Yes you can use a 5p night rate but that will last only until about 5-10% of the car stock are BEVs then there won't be a night time rate

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Even at 2.8 miles/kWh the savings are considerable....even for someone doing 8000 miles pa.

My fuel cost will drop from £90pw to £10pw....:)

Do you think the £3,000 a year less in tax you pay should be made up by firing 1/10th of a teacher or the government taking on £3,000 more debt plus interest for your kids to deal with when the 20 year gilt comes due?

JKenH

Article from Autocar about EVs and emissions

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-just-how-green-are-electric-vehicles

Martyn1981

GreatApe wrote: »

You seem to be one of the few who understands what I'm on aboout

The headline figures are misleading
A model 3 might get 4.1 miles per KWh according to their regulator and customer feedback
But the car is always using energy while driving or not and there are significant charging losses

What this means is the actual miles per KWh out of the socket is much less
For a typical UK car doing 7,100 miles per year the figure is probably closer to about 2.8 miles per KWh


So for a typical average mileage user they will have to purchase some 150% of the electricity they may assume by simply dividing their annual mileage by the 'miles per KWh' figure

Then you need to do the same for petrol and diesel and include the efficiency losses from source to fuel tank (battery).

So, exploration, drilling, extraction, shipping, refining, transport to petrol station, pumps to fuel tank.

The refining process alone consumes around 5-6kWh of energy per gallon, enough to move a BEV ~20 miles. So halfway for free (v's petrol/diesel).


With regard to 'vampire drain', my understanding is that this is improving all the time. The batts in the TMS & TMX are far worse than the newer/better ones in the TM3. I recall the TM3 losses around one mile per day (100 miles over 60 something days if memory serves).

How will we cope?

Martyn1981

JKenH wrote: »

Article from Autocar about EVs and emissions

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-just-how-green-are-electric-vehicles

That article appears to focus only on CO2, not all emissions. Obviously, the pollution savings from moving to BEV's is important, especially in towns and cities.

Edit - Unless I'm missing something, this article is also comparing the emissions from leccy production + battery production v's the emissions from an ICE vehicle. But if it's including battery production, then shouldn't it also include petrol/diesel production too?

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

No
Your tax cost will drop
Your fuel costs mostly won't

Petrol and diesel only cost about 45p per litre in the UK the rest is taxes
An efficient 60mpg diesel costs only 3.4 pennies per mile in fuel

A model 3 getting 2.8 miles per KWh has a fuel cost of 5.1p per mile using a normal 15p/KWh rate minus the VAT.

So the fuel cost per mile for a TM3 is higher than diesel. Yes you can use a 5p night rate but that will last only until about 5-10% of the car stock are BEVs then there won't be a night time rate

Only you could make your point by artificially trebling the cost of electricity & knocking 66% off the cost of petrol/diesel.