Premier Park POPLA appeal help please

Discogod

[FONT=&quot]Hello everybody, I'm completely overawed at the vast amount of information and support from so many people here to help us beat these PCN's. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I'd dearly love your support to guide my POPLA appeal please [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Brief Summary:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Parked at Nottingham Street car park, Melton Mowbray which appears to be in the grounds of a pub which has short opening hours. The car park has ANPR, the PCN claims an overstay of 24 minutes. This PCN was received within 14 days. Sent a fairly standard appeal using the template, this was rejected and now there's a POPLA code for appeal.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]POPLA code was received on 15th August, which gives until 12 September to complete the appeal. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There was a recent bereavement in the family. Whilst driving, the driver became upset and so found a safe place to settle before continuing the journey. So the vehicle was in the car park but without any chance to review the signage (which is not visible from all areas). Once in a fit state to drive, the car existed the the area. Is it worth using this argument (albeit with a more detail)?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I will also appeal on the following arguments: [/FONT]


1 The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself
2 Keeper Liability
3. Landowner Authority
4. ANPR - signs fail to transparently warn drivers of what the ANPR data will be used.
5. Parking charge notices - PCN in question contains two images of the vehicle and two close-up images of the vehicle number plate. Neither of these images contains a date and time stamp “on the photograph”.
6. No Planning Permission for ANPR

Is there anything else I need to consider?

I do have many photographs of the site – is it a good idea to post these here for your perusal? In particular, I believe a good argument is lack of signage in parts of the site. From where the car was parked, it would not be physically possible to view any signs.

The_Deep

Whilst driving, the driver became upset and so found a safe place to settle before continuing the journey

Private car parks are not safe places. The stickies/FAQS have hundreds of these run of the mill PCNs, read the PoPLa thread at the top of the page.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Discogod

Thanks The Deep for your input. I'll exlude the 'story' behind the parking and stick with the 6 points i mentioned?



I'm also wondering on the likelyhood of sucess - given that if i pay before going to POPLA, i still get the 'discount'.

MistyZ

If the signage is especially poor the appeal may have more chance of success as long as the assessor's attention is clearly drawn to the signage failures.

There's also a chance of landowner authority yielding a win.

How was payment meant to be made?

Discogod

Thanks for replying Misty


I just noticed they are requesting payment by 29 August (£60, rather than £100 if paid after).


Payment options include over the phone, on their website or postal order.

I've done a site plan using Satellite images, noting in Black where the car park is, Gold is where the full parking charges are listed, Indigo is a minor parking sign (saying refer to other signs).

https://i.ibb.co/94BxtjC/Satellite-letter-number.jpg

On entry to the car park, the driver would be watching for pedestrians, not reading the detail of parking signs; meaning no contract is entered into. Most signs are approximately 2-3 metres off the ground & obscured behind parked vehicles. There's no sign at all between 'b' and '3', also none between '3' & '4'. If a driver is parked between 'b' & '3', no sign is visible. Nor can a sign be seen if you park in the middle section facing the wall between 'b' & '3' as seen in this photo:

https://i.ibb.co/StKp9ZN/view-from-middle-car-park-towards-left-side.jpg


example of sign obscurred by vehicle:

https://i.ibb.co/0yC07FB/example-sign-obscured.jpg


Here's the wording on a major sign, this is by the entrance and cannot be seen when entering. It's the only one at head height:

https://i.ibb.co/Q6MDS4J/entrance-3-sign-close.jpg


If a driver does park in a place where no signs can be seen, and they do not leave the vehicle, can a contract be entered into?

MistyZ

Hi. Not looked at your links yet ... waiting for experienced regulars to check them (getting a bit nervous of following links).

However your comments are quite rigorous, sounds as if you've 'critiqued' the signage pretty well. I would not bother mentioning any signs that may be easier to read, i.e. the 'only one at head height', just comment on the bad signage, of which there does seem to be plenty.

As for whether a contract has been entered into ... well that's what you'd be arguing: that no contract could be entered into given the poor signage. It's not black & white.

You would need to embed the images in your POPLA appeal. I hear you on the £60 deadline, only you can decide what to do.

Although the driver wasn't a paying customer of the pub, I think I'd give a landowner complaint a shot as well. Might the driver have gone into the pub had it been open? In any case, you never know with landowners. I can certainly empathise with the driver and there's a chance that the manager of the pub might too. If they are the landowner they can get this cancelled if they so choose. Chances are they are not the landowner but they could tell you who is.

The_Deep

This is puzzling, from Google street view dated October 2018 this would appear to have been a Council car park. The sign lists "penalties". It does not appear to have any connection with the pub.

If it is council owned land contract law may not apply. Others may be able yo advise.

fisherjim

The_Deep wrote: »

This is puzzling, from Google street view dated October 2018 this would appear to have been a Council car park. The sign lists "penalties". It does not appear to have any connection with the pub.

If it is council owned land contract law may not apply. Others may be able yo advise.

I think you landed in the car park behind the quoted one TD it backs on to a council car park.


The car park in question from the photos and Streetview 2018 outside are woeful.


The Streetview car went into the car park in 2016 prior to the PPC taking over management and you can clearly see signage then suggesting the car park belongs to the pub.

Discogod

Thanks all for your replies.



At the moment I've no idea who actually is the landowner. I found a Marston's sign on site and something online suggesting they were the owners. However, when speaking to Marston's, they confirm they sold the site in March 2019 but were unable to tell me to whom (data protection).



I don't know when Premier Park started running this contract but i suspect if it was before March, there's every chance this will be thrown out due to lack of landowner authority. Google streetview suggests in Oct 2018, there was no particular shark company doing the parking, just simple meters. That was at a time that there was a Marston's for sale board up. So perhaps, their contract is with the new landowner? I think i've no way of finding out until the POPLA appeal.


The phone numbers listed online for this pub are all dead. Google suggests it's open late on Friday and Satuday nights. As i work most Friday & Saturday's this makes it pretty difficult to even visit to find out if it does open then.


I don't really know my next step, other than sorting the appeal wording out?

Discogod

Hello again. A quick reply needed would be really appreciated please, my appeal deadline is tomorrow.



I have written well over 2000 words to cover my appeal. Is it allowed to upload it all in a word document (with photos within)? Thanks to anyone who helps!

Coupon-mad

Do control & F when the NEWBIES thread is open - and put in '2000' as your search term, and you will find how to submit a long POPLA appeal properly.

Show us your draft, first. We won't bite and we might see something to add to improve its chances.