Who will accept a DB to SIPP transfer from "insistent client"

random129

HappyHarry said:

random129 said:

Spot the similarities...

A Nigerian Prince offers you £200,000 if you will help him. All you have to do is pay him a £5,000 admin fee and in return you will receive £200,000. You pay the £5,000 and surprise surprise you don't get the promised £200,000. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

The UK government offers you the opportunity to transfer your £200,000 DB pension fund. All you have to do is pay their friends, I mean an IFA, £5,000 for advice. If the advice is not to transfer don't worry the law still allows you to transfer. You pay the £5,000 and are advised not to transfer. You don't worry because the law is on your side and you can still transfer but the reality is you can't. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

Since when was the UK government a friend of IFAs? Did I miss something? From FCA regulation and "thematic reviews", to the funding of the FSCS, I doubt you will find many decent IFAs who claim the government is a friend of their businesses.

Don't blame the IFAs for the legislation and regulation that got us to this place. We didn't agree it, we didn't want it, we didn't like it being forced upon us.

You have had a lot of assistance and helpful comments from IFAs on this board since you started posting about your predicament. 

As one of the IFAs on here that help many posters out on a pro bono basis, I, and others are quite frankly fed up with your and other posters uncalled for and unwarranted comments when we are trying to assist.

Quite frankly, your attitude stinks. 

My attitude comes from complete frustration at what is a ridiculous situation. I concede IFA's may not be friends of the government but they must surely have benefitted from extra income since the regulations changed to force them to charge for advice not to transfer. Anyway, apologies if I have offended you. In my opinion the current situation does amount to a complete scam although the main culprits are the government and FCA regulation.

random129

Thrugelmir said:

random129 said:

Spot the similarities...



The UK government offers you the opportunity to transfer your £200,000 DB pension fund. All you have to do is pay their friends, I mean an IFA, £5,000 for advice. If the advice is not to transfer don't worry the law still allows you to transfer. You pay the £5,000 and are advised not to transfer. You don't worry because the law is on your side and you can still transfer but the reality is you can't. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

70 mph is the legal speed limit on UK motorways.  Exceeding this limit , if caught, can result in a combination of penalty points and a fine, possibly even a ban.  Does this deter people. No they perceive the risk to them personally to be small. Should it result in an accident, in financial terms it's not them that picks up the cost either. 

A strange analogy. Breaking the speed limit is NOT allowed by law. Transferring a DB pension against the advice of an IFA IS allowed by law. So, if the law says you CAN do something, IE transfer a DB pension against the advice of an IFA, then the government should bring in legislation to make it possible for people to do it. Alternatively, they should amend the law to make it AGAINST the law to transfer a DB pension against the advice of an IFA.

dunstonh

A Nigerian Prince offers you £200,000 if you will help him. All you have to do is pay him a £5,000 admin fee and in return you will receive £200,000. You pay the £5,000 and surprise surprise you don't get the promised £200,000. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

It isn't even close to matching as the scammer is one individual committing advance fee fraud.

The UK government offers you the opportunity to transfer your £200,000 DB pension fund. All you have to do is pay their friends, I mean an IFA, £5,000 for advice. If the advice is not to transfer don't worry the law still allows you to transfer. You pay the £5,000 and are advised not to transfer. You don't worry because the law is on your side and you can still transfer but the reality is you can't. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

The Government doesn't offer you the opportunity to transfer your DB pension.  it hasn't legislated against it (apart from Public sector unfunded schemes).     The Government has mandated advice because, historically, 9 out of 10 cases are best left with the DB scheme.  It worries too many people will make the wrong decision.

IFAs offer advice.  That is their service.    What you do with the advice is up to you.     You have received the service.  So, you haven't been scammed out of anything.

Transferring a DB pension against the advice of an IFA IS allowed by law. 

in the UK, we don't have a law to allow you to do something.  We have laws to restrict what you can do.  There is no law preventing you from sticking your head in an oven.  Doesn't mean you should do it.

Alternatively, they should amend the law to make it AGAINST the law to transfer a DB pension against the advice of an IFA.

They don't need to do that as the market has effectively decided it for them.

Linton

random129 said:

HappyHarry said:

random129 said:

Spot the similarities...

A Nigerian Prince offers you £200,000 if you will help him. All you have to do is pay him a £5,000 admin fee and in return you will receive £200,000. You pay the £5,000 and surprise surprise you don't get the promised £200,000. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

The UK government offers you the opportunity to transfer your £200,000 DB pension fund. All you have to do is pay their friends, I mean an IFA, £5,000 for advice. If the advice is not to transfer don't worry the law still allows you to transfer. You pay the £5,000 and are advised not to transfer. You don't worry because the law is on your side and you can still transfer but the reality is you can't. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

Since when was the UK government a friend of IFAs? Did I miss something? From FCA regulation and "thematic reviews", to the funding of the FSCS, I doubt you will find many decent IFAs who claim the government is a friend of their businesses.

Don't blame the IFAs for the legislation and regulation that got us to this place. We didn't agree it, we didn't want it, we didn't like it being forced upon us.

You have had a lot of assistance and helpful comments from IFAs on this board since you started posting about your predicament. 

As one of the IFAs on here that help many posters out on a pro bono basis, I, and others are quite frankly fed up with your and other posters uncalled for and unwarranted comments when we are trying to assist.

Quite frankly, your attitude stinks. 

My attitude comes from complete frustration at what is a ridiculous situation. I concede IFA's may not be friends of the government but they must surely have benefitted from extra income since the regulations changed to force them to charge for advice not to transfer. Anyway, apologies if I have offended you. In my opinion the current situation does amount to a complete scam although the main culprits are the government and FCA regulation.

WHy to few IFA want anything to do with DB transfer if it's such an easy source of extra incomer?

Aretnap

dunstonh said:

Transferring a DB pension against the advice of an IFA IS allowed by law. 

in the UK, we don't have a law to allow you to do something.  We have laws to restrict what you can do.  There is no law preventing you from sticking your head in an oven.  Doesn't mean you should do it.

Also worth adding that the fact that you are "allowed" to do something (or at least, not prohibited from doing it) doesn't mean anybody else is under an obligation to help you do it, morally or legally. Especially if they judge that it's a bad idea, or that helping you would expose them to legal and/or reputational risks.

If you went to Curry's and told them that you wanted to buy an oven so that you could put your head in it, they'd be perfectly within their rights to refuse to sell you one... and I certainly hope that they would. 

random129

dunstonh said:

A Nigerian Prince offers you £200,000 if you will help him. All you have to do is pay him a £5,000 admin fee and in return you will receive £200,000. You pay the £5,000 and surprise surprise you don't get the promised £200,000. You have been scammed out of £5,000.

It isn't even close to matching as the scammer is one individual committing advance fee fraud.

It's close enough to a scam for anyone £5,000 out of pocket because they took advice on the assumption they could still proceed with a transfer if the advice was against it. A massive warning should be given on all IFA's websites spelling out the fact that you will not be able to transfer your pension if they advise you to but you will still have to pay us a fee. (In my case quoted £5,000). Morally all IFA's should refuse to offer advice at all for DB pensions. It seems to me they will be getting a huge increase in income from people forced to pay for advice even if they can't ultimately transfer.

The Government doesn't offer you the opportunity to transfer your DB pension.  it hasn't legislated against it (apart from Public sector unfunded schemes).     The Government has mandated advice because, historically, 9 out of 10 cases are best left with the DB scheme.  It worries too many people will make the wrong decision.

The government also worries you may smoke and advises you against it but shopkeepers will still sell you cigarettes. No matter what way you look at it the current situation is wrong. People should have some way of transferring their funds if they are allowed to in law. 

IFAs offer advice.  That is their service.    What you do with the advice is up to you.     You have received the service.  So, you haven't been scammed out of anything.

In reality what you do with the advice is NOT up to me because if I choose to ignore advice NOT to transfer and want to transfer anyway I can't because the IFA will not make the transfer for me and I cannot do it myself because no fund provider will allow me to transfer against advice. So that really does feel to me like I have been scammed.

Transferring a DB pension against the advice of an IFA IS allowed by law. 

in the UK, we don't have a law to allow you to do something.  We have laws to restrict what you can do.  There is no law preventing you from sticking your head in an oven.  Doesn't mean you should do it.

Ok I'll rephrase it for you. Transferring a DB pension against the advice of an IFA is NOT restricted by law. A silly analogy about the oven in my opinion but I will comment anyway by saying you do not have to pay £5,000 to be advised NOT to stick your head in an oven but even if you did and was rightly advised not to you would still be allowed to buy an oven and do it anyway if you so wished.

Alternatively, they should amend the law to make it AGAINST the law to transfer a DB pension against the advice of an IFA.

They don't need to do that as the market has effectively decided it for them.

True but at least a change in the law would stop people wasting their hard earned money trying to do something that is ultimately impossible for most.

Silvertabby

When the 'pension freedoms' were first announced, there were warnings against going on a spending spree with the intention of living on means tested State benefits in later life.

The 'Deprivation of Pension Assets' data said that claims for means tested benefits in retirement would take into account personal/occupational pensions that had been spent or given away and, if DWP considered that the money had been spent or given away with the aim of claiming benefits, then the assessor would 'assume' that the claimant still had these assets when applying the means test.

I did think that this would be very difficult to police - so perhaps the clamp down on transferring DB pensions is all part of that?

QrizB

random129 said:

The Government doesn't offer you the opportunity to transfer your DB pension.  it hasn't legislated against it (apart from Public sector unfunded schemes).     The Government has mandated advice because, historically, 9 out of 10 cases are best left with the DB scheme.  It worries too many people will make the wrong decision.

The government also worries you may smoke and advises you against it but shopkeepers will still sell you cigarettes. No matter what way you look at it the current situation is wrong. People should have some way of transferring their funds if they are allowed to in law.

If shopkeepers were being found liable to pay compensation to their customers for the effects of smoking, despite advising them against it, you might find fewer shopkeepers willing to sell cigarettes.

random129

Aretnap said:

dunstonh said:

Transferring a DB pension against the advice of an IFA IS allowed by law. 

in the UK, we don't have a law to allow you to do something.  We have laws to restrict what you can do.  There is no law preventing you from sticking your head in an oven.  Doesn't mean you should do it.

Also worth adding that the fact that you are "allowed" to do something (or at least, not prohibited from doing it) doesn't mean anybody else is under an obligation to help you do it, morally or legally. Especially if they judge that it's a bad idea, or that helping you would expose them to legal and/or reputational risks.

If you went to Curry's and told them that you wanted to buy an oven so that you could put your head in it, they'd be perfectly within their rights to refuse to sell you one... and I certainly hope that they would. 

Shops still sell cigarettes to you even if you tell them you intend to smoke them against all known advice

random129

QrizB said:

random129 said:

The Government doesn't offer you the opportunity to transfer your DB pension.  it hasn't legislated against it (apart from Public sector unfunded schemes).     The Government has mandated advice because, historically, 9 out of 10 cases are best left with the DB scheme.  It worries too many people will make the wrong decision.

The government also worries you may smoke and advises you against it but shopkeepers will still sell you cigarettes. No matter what way you look at it the current situation is wrong. People should have some way of transferring their funds if they are allowed to in law.

If shopkeepers were being found liable to pay compensation to their customers for the effects of smoking, despite advising them against it, you might find fewer shopkeepers willing to sell cigarettes.

That's why I think a change in the law is needed to prevent people who go against advice but then are still allowed to sue. It's ridiculous. If you were banned from taking legal action against someone because things went wrong when you ignored their advice (common sense dictates that should be the case) then IFA's and Fund providers would have no problem allowing insistent clients. Problem solved. Everyone wins. Clients, IFA's and fund providers alike.

A simple clear warning should suffice...

WARNING Transferring your DB pension could seriously damage your wealth. If you transfer against the advice of an IFA then you do so entirely at your own risk. You will not be allowed to claim compensation if you lose money if you go against the advice given.